DM Events and new players

[Trinket]

I hate bringing up discussions on sensitive topics but I'd like to see how everyone else feels about it, and share their own thoughts and experiences.

One thing I've heard a lot of lately is how difficult it is to get involved in DM events as new players, or even to get involved in events when you're not a veteran/long time player on the server.

I've been playing on and off for a little over a year now, and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been invited to an event, despite many many attempts to get involved ICly. I've immensely enjoyed the little one-off events thrown my way, but I've become conditioned to the idea that I won't be included.

I know it's not always easy to line up your schedule with story lines, but it's difficult to feel connected to the server atmosphere when you feel excluded in events. I imagine it is hard for DMs too when you don't know the commitment of new players or their story, or experience level, and story lines could die on a whim from inactivity.

When I say excluded, I feel that many veteran players are more likely to be leading an event ICly than other players, and the responsibility for navigating a story line falls on them. I've seen cases where the veterans will insert themselves into a story, and knowingly or not - become the leader and the focus for it. It then makes me feel petty for resenting those people for having events when I'm certain it isn't malicious.

A few acquaintances have expressed that it feels like events seem to constantly be catered to veteran players - or those that are heavily integrated into the server. It does often feel like the older players are more likely to have an event or experience dropped into their lap than newer players. That's not to say it never happens, just that it's far less common.

I get that we as players don't get a monopoly on the efforts of the volunteer efforts of DMs, and I'd want to make events for my crew as well, yet it often feels like we're support characters to the veteran 'title'-players.

Do you agree? What advice would you give to new players to get involved in events? Or should there be more opportunity for lesser known players to be the 'front liner' of a DM story?

I'd love to hear what you all think.

[DM SummerBreeze]

My events are open to everyone, it's why I post all my event write ups on the public DM forums, including plot hooks. I think anyone who has been a part of my events (Outside of personal requests.) knows that I don't play favourites with specific groups, and sort of trigger things on whom ever happens to be around.

I went out of my way last week in fact to run an entire event string for several brand new players with a level cap of 16 on the event. But I digress:


One thing I have noticed, from the viewpoint of my side as a DM, is that a lot of players tend to bring events and plot items to specific groups (Like the Radiant Heart.) whether that group asks for it or not. This is a pretty pervasive habit I have seen pretty consistently on the server over my time here. I am not certain why so many players want to bring the events or hooks that they get to other more established players or groups, but it keeps happening.

As an example, I went out of my way during my previous Vampire series of events to give an character who was not level 20+ and who was not affiliated with any guild, a central plot item and hook in order to draw them and their newer group into the plot, and they promptly gave the item over to an established level 30 character within 24 hours. Effectively removing themselves from the main parts of the plot.

All I mean by this is this is not really DM's trying to DM for only their friends, it's actually a far more nuanced issue that is rather difficult to solve. If I were to DM for only my friends that would already be most of the server, as i've been in tons of guilds and been here for over a decade as a player So basically I mean I <3 you all really.

Hope that clears up a few misconceptions on this topic, which I think is worth discussing. I look forward to seeing peoples viewpoints or constructive feedback on this.

[Winterborne]

I think the best thing someone can do is be active, and to express their desire to be involved or remain involved. But it goes a little further than that - a large part of events and how they work is whether we like it or not, using the forums for follow ups and additional roleplay between in-game happenings.

I personally would prefer that as much as possible happened in game with no real need for the forums but there's just no way to ensure everyone has overlapping schedules.

What Summerbreeze mentioned absolutely happens, too. People will find something and pass it off to another player because they are not sure how to approach it and then the person who originally had an item or object central to the plot stops showing up after - even if the folks they handed it off to and the DM are trying to involve them.

There's the option of putting everything on hold until a day that person is around but if they are not responsive to PM's about scheduling stuff it can be hard to coordinate - and then you'll also have all the other players trying to follow up and progress, who may not be connected to the original group. It can get messy very fast.

DM plots and Events though are not always (possibly not even usually) spontaneous and do not simply fall into a lap out of nowhere.

Some of them are the result of player requests to the DMs to have an event, and some things that might seem to happen out of nowhere might have been going on behind the scenes for a while prior to that.

The best ways in my experience to be involved are:

1) Try to have consistent playtimes if your schedule allows. You're obviously most likely to stumble into something if you are actually in game.

2) Be some place with a lot of people. Most DMs seem to want to involve as many players as possible in an event they are running, with the exception of some that may have an attendance limit for game balance reasons by the DM's request. This can be difficult for less social characters, but even then it's quite possible to be someplace while not being a social butterfly and nobody is really going to give you a hard time about it.

3) Communicate - with other players as much as the DMs. After an event ends there's likely going to be a lot of off camera stuff happening in forum PMs, and people will need to know you desire to be following up and continuing to work on it to add you to that PM, if they are sending one. If you are the one composing a PM, address it to the DM you are following up with and any other players you're working with for tis event, and explain what you are trying to do going forward. They might ask you for rolls, or for other info. And you might get asked eventually to put together a group and schedule something in game.

4) Don't just give away your plot item to someone else - this can often stall an event out and prevent it going anywhere and leave people wondering what happened with a certain plot chain. If your character wants to put something someplace safe, talk with whoever you are considering passing it to and work something out on an OOC level to ensure things keep moving, and that your item doesn't become lost luggage a DM then has to come up with a workaround for if the place you put it suddenly stops being accessible.

At the end of the day, I truly think consistency is the number one thing. Being there, being present, being visible and actively involved with other players in general is likely to be the best way to be involved in things. I know I personally go out of my way regularly to drag new characters/new players into things (Whether they are things happening due to a request I made, or something being stumbled into) whenever I can, and I see a lot of that from other people as well.

Finally, most DM plots seem to be designed in such a way as to not have any one person or group be the driving force. This is especially important from the DM side because if you put all your eggs in one basket so to speak and that player or group suddenly disappears, your plot is dead in the water. Even when it seems like something is "handled" already or under control, there's always room for more players to get involved IMO.

If you aren't sure how to work yourself into a specific event, ask the players you know are already working on something, or if you don't want to do that, reach out to the DM and let them know you are interested but don't know how to be involved. They are almost always willing to give you an "in".

[yyj]

When I first started playing on the server I had a lot of these problems, I was playing an ilmateri paladin but I found out that not everyone trusted her at all even with things where she was supposed to dutifully serve (like fighting evil dragons or undead) and this kept me from playing much at first because I tried to help out but a lot of people were just asking "Who are you again?" and it made sense.

Getting established sometimes is just a matter of making a few roleplaying posts, in my case, I started at the church of Ilmater because I was playing an ilmateri paladin and this is how I started to get attention for my character.

One thing to keep in mind about plots and DMs, is that , there's a certain danger that I give a plot item to a throw away alt character, or someone who is just trying out the server, or only plays once every few weeks, and then the plot gets stuck or you have to start over again.

If I were a DM, I would look for active players that seem to stick to the same characters and are actively making RP posts, but do bear in mind that many times, plots happen because players go with the DM team and ask for them.

If your plot includes other players (Or better enough, a whole guild), it makes sense within the setting and seems like a fun idea then probably a DM will take that plot and run it.

Do not expect to be included on a plot just because you are at the right moment at the right place because this is really hard and is just a roll of the dice, I feel that the solution for OP is to get together with a group of friends or guildies, come up with a plot idea and send it to the DM team.

I hope my words helped, feel free to reach to me in private or approach any of my characters for plots or roleplay, I do enjoy running player driven plots very often.

[TravelingVagrant]

...

Do not expect to be included on a plot just because you are at the right moment at the right place because this is really hard and is just a roll of the dice, I feel that the solution for OP is to get together with a group of friends or guildies, come up with a plot idea and send it to the DM team.

I hope my words helped, feel free to reach to me in private or approach any of my characters for plots or roleplay, I do enjoy running player driven plots very often.

I'm inclined to disagree with this point - if a player, especially a newer player stumbles into an event because they were in the right place at the right time, I think they should absolutely be included. Nothing feels worse than trying to engage with an event and getting unintentionally snubbed. I can say from personal experience (not necessarily with BGTSCC) that being ignored when you're trying to participate has driven me from roleplaying in or playing a game.

The very first event I ever participated in in this game was something against werewolves. I was level 12 or so at the time, and obviously I wasn't able to fight the higher level monsters, but the DM made sure to include the newer players / lowbies into a scouting group. We were all able to participate, even if it was a challenge for said DM to do so. I wish I could recall the DM specifically in order to give them proper props for making sure to include us.

At the end of the day, newer / lower level players shouldn't be excluded, and I think that if someone was present at an event and there is PMs going on on the forums, they should be informed about those so they can participate. How else are they to know if that's happening? A new player might not feel comfortable with PMing a guild leader to ask if they can join in on their plot.

[DM Spartacus]

I think there have been some good thoughts added here already that cover the issues. This includes from a DM side the difficulty in dropping hooks for plots that end up RCR or at Blunts in the bin. Just trying to add our perspective around thta. We have ways round it by repeating drops after a while, when not running a single one party story.

If you aren't sure how to work yourself into a specific event, ask the players you know are already working on something, or if you don't want to do that, reach out to the DM and let them know you are interested but don't know how to be involved. They are almost always willing to give you an "in".

This finishing comment above pretty much captures what can and should be achieved. We are aware and try to have lower levels point quests. But IC and OOC retaining some control seems important. Telling no one and doing nothing (hoarding a clue) cannot work likewise running to established players and dumping also cannot really be best. The answer likely lies in there.

I acknowledge there is a bottom line and currently small numbers from a variety of Guilds (mostly with daily presence) group together and progress plots. This is likely unintentionally unhelpful to others. It is something those players, DMs and those players not involved all need to address to help. It is my opinion most people want that to happen but it seems in reality that is difficult. I do not think there is a magic solution but a constant effort all round will make this better.

I think by the replies here you can see people want to make it happen but the challenges of time, IG allegiance, reliability, complexity of plot can work for and against involvement. We all want to be smart in giving roles for all that want them, both player and DM alike.

For me solving my background plots has always meant to require work and are arguably difficult. But that helps new groups too. Getting involved however is pretty easy. Just pick up a line of activity related to a plot, or actually anything a group wants to do and ask.

Plot stuff is generally posted here, and is not level constrained.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=20024&start=465

[Almarea90]

Since I heard this concern from different people, I will add my perspective here as well. This is based on my personal perception and by all mean it might not apply to all cases or be limited.

I have been involved in the current plots. That required, as the others explained, consistent presence and extensive RP with the factions involved. At the end of the day we're all here to have fun and I believe everyone would be happy to include whoever is interested in joining the plot if given an IC reason. After this initial step to reach those involved, not only me but also other Candlekeep players are managing to get some manner of participation in the plots.

However...

1) I have been playing for 2 years with the same character and my guild has access to the biggest library of the Coast, that gives us a discrete advantage that new players might not have.

2) As said before, this required regular presence and extensive RP with the involved factions. This might prove difficult for less sociable characters. Also I play a good aligned character who is essentially happy to help for the greater good. I can see how a lonely unaffiliated character who wouldn't help for free can have difficulties at that. Now I understand there are ways and workarounds but they have it harder nonetheless.

3) The party involved often find themselves dealing with delicate information that understandably they don't want to share with people they barely know. That applies also to those events that have a limited number of players. It's completely understandable that if a group of people learns of an extremely powerful and dangerous artifact they don't wish to share this information with someone they saw twice. Or if they are going for a mission where they can only bring a limited number of people they would choose those they trust and have known for a long time over strangers or people they don't trust. That makes it harder for evil factions like the Red Wizards or the Zhentarim and that indirectly discourages other players from interacting with them fearing they might be excluded themselves and deemed untrustworthy.

Truth being told, the last two cases have been recently mitigated by the attacks that happened in the public map near Soubar. In this regards I would like to say kudos to the Blackrose players for issuing an open call to arms and involving many players. I understand though that these public events come with a whole load of issues (lag, crashes, chat clogged) and make it hard for the DM to follow it all.
With this I don't mean to make accusations to either players or DM but just offer my perspective so we can all work towards being more inclusive and make the game more enjoyable for old and new players alike.

Sorry for the long post.

[Steve]

One thing I've heard a lot of lately is how difficult it is to get involved in DM events as new players, or even to get involved in events when you're not a veteran/long time player on the server.

It’s not just new players that have problems. A lot of what it depends on, getting invited into events or included in plots, if you do have an OOC relationship with the others, mostly players, but yes, sometimes DMs as well.

But let’s be honest: that makes absolute sense! We are hardwired to treat like-is-like better than those or that which we disagree with. Bias is an undeniable thing.

On the whole, the community is inclusive. But at some times, some players, like myself, just can’t get passes the walls other players have put up, and you’re better off no longer trying to involve yourself in RP where those players have taken a big or even all role.

That said, one must simply keep making a direct effort to involve your Character(s) until it finally happens they get involved. You may stumble a bunch, but keep at it. Staying with one Character for a long time with dedication and consistency is a must. As well, forming IG groups and/or partnerships with as many PCs the better. Also, just assure your Character into things, if you the player thinks it makes sense IC. Prove the merit of your PCs inclusion by role-playing with heart and dedication, and support the RP of other Characters in the process.

Lastly, it always helps to reach out OOC to other players and/or DMs. In the least, you’ll be told off and from there you won’t beat your head against the keyboard any longer, wondering why your not in the event/plot.

Then go out and start one on your own!!!

[Alexander Holgart]

My 2 cents on the matter:

But let’s be honest: that makes absolute sense! We are hardwired to treat like-is-like better than those or that which we disagree with. Bias is an undeniable thing.

This is sadly true and I agree with that statement, but things can be done so it can be partially countered, like aiming toward transparency in the development of plots where possible so you can be called out if you are putting too much of a bias in what you are doing.

Moving toward the "new players" aspect of the topic, this is a very complex issue that has a lot of different points of view for which one might see issues.

One would be the underlying gameplay structure, by this I mean the fact that from a mechanical point of view this server for obvious reasons tends to accumulate high numbers of epic leveled characters. This makes things difficult for a new player to feel involved if even when they get into an event they get smashed by the numerical difference caused by such a gap.

Is there an easy solution for this? No.

What could help? I think a way to help would be keep the new player engaged and invested into getting to lvl 30 by doing small one shot events aimed specifically for low level parties, even gatekeeped for low level parties. Quick and self concluding events, anything bigger is bound to drop into the hands of high level players and defeat the purpose of making feel new players a bit more engaged and invested in their characters.

It is also pointless to make bigger plots for new players that might drop their characters in 2 days so small events could help in terms of investment, it is also easier to DM weaker characters, for obvious reasons.

In addition, xp rewards coming from such events will move those characters closer to the level needed to feel closer to the bigger chunk of player base at high levels.

One last thing, inclusion is definitely a good thing and I am all for it. On the other hand I think there can't be only massively inclusive events, smaller plots aimed to smaller groups usually give more in depth RP experience and offer more character development. That said, given the possibility and manpower I think there should be a main server plot with the big numbers, heavily inclusive, and smaller plots aimed to give more substantial RP experiences other than "here is your horde of enemies, fight!", in my experience such plots also give much more satisfaction to DMs as well of players.

That's all, have a good day full of natural 20s!

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I don't want to start a rant as I'm frustrated about the situation as well. All I can say is that yes, the issue OP brought up is very real and tangible. In my opinion, it mostly stems from territorial behavior of established characters and cliques. DMs didn't do anything wrong here, but DMs still can allieviate this tension by:

- Creating more publically accessible events.
- More side-events for lowbies.
- Using NPCs to reach out to underrepresented factions to have them involved.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

By and large, I'll echo sentiments expressed above. But something that I've run into a few times is players simply ignoring me when I offer a plot hook. Which is fine, they're perfectly in their right to do so, but it makes me less inclined to offer that player a plot hook in the future.

To be honest, I dislike public events that cover large swaths of the population. Rather, I enjoy running small, faction focused plots with a focus on PnP style play. While people certainly have their preferences when it comes to DMs, I have preferences too; namely puzzles, character driven plots, and small group interactions. It's why you'll rarely see me do public events and even more rarely put a shout out for random encounters with half the sever hopping on.

I cannot recommend joining a faction enough, and when doing so, coming up with some kind of goal that you want to move forward with to request an event for.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I personally try to involve as many people as I can in any plots going on that my toon is a part of, as long as it makes sense ICly. Now, when it comes to events that my character is leading, I will always try to keep it to around 6 toons. Because I do not enjoy events that have more than that (celebrations and festivals are excluded in that). In fact, I absolutely hate them, and try to avoid them if I'm invited to them. I do some of them sometimes, but only if I feel there's no IC reason why I wouldn't.

A good for instance is the event recently where we had several people go help a white dragon fight balors, and get a balor blade to be purified. In the plot portion of it, over a dozen people were involved. But my toon led a small group to initially talk to the white, then when it came time to actually help the dragon fight, only 8 people were present.

I won't go into details or call out anyone here. But I know that caused some issues that some people weren't invited. But even 8 people was nearly too much for my enjoyment; after I spent the time and PMs and RP to enact a plot-line that I was responsible for making happen, I wanted to be able to enjoy it (kudos to the DM, I had a blast, and I know others did). It really is that simple, from my perspective. Too many people involved would have killed the enjoyment for me. And not only me, but I know I speak for at least three of the other 7 there.

Another example is the tentacles off of Ulgoth's. Many people are involved from many factions. And my toon is spreading the word to everyone he can. And when three bottles of alcohol were taken from the beach, he went to three trusted wizards (all three in different factions), gave them each a bottle and asked them to look into it. I'm going to continue to get as many people involved in it as I can. But if my toon ends up having a good idea, and coming up with an idea for an event that the DM approves, there will be only about 6-8 people involved in the event.

Now, to the OP, I saw when the OP was posted. I know the circumstances behind the post (and the event that was ongoing right before the post was posted), though there may be more to it than I know. The forums are not a place to discuss the details, but if you want an in depth explanation on things that happened during that event, hit me up on discord. I'm in the BGTSCC discord. Name's Emmanuel.

[Oarthias]

There is a lot of good stuff written above and I won't repeat that... but I will expand a bit on one item. As stated in one of the above posts, focusing on establishing a main character and investing in your time into really establishing relationships with other chars as well as a reputation for who your character is a key element here.

Become known as a character that has a strong knowledge in a certain area, the mage that is powerful and contains knowledge in a specific area, the character that fantastic not just at removing traps but at trap setting them too. Reputations help make it so people will search you out for things as well.

If I want traps set for a plot, I have go to characters that I reach out to.
If there is scrying that needs to done, again, there are characters that people will go to for that.
Need someone to stand in front of the monster toe to toe, so you can stab it in the back... there are those that are known for that.
Healing wounds, again there are those that have a reputation for those tasks.
You want information... well, you look to certain folks that are known for that too.
Need supplies, you go to the guilds that are traders.
Research; well find a friendly neighborhood Candlekeeper or someone else that has RPed being someone that does a good bit of research.
There is even a character that is known for their sewer knowledge... Have something that needs to be done there, there is a guy that you call.

You don't have to be level 30 to be involved or become known. Create a network of friends and start earning a reputation for being good at something.

Build a reputation, get to know the others that are also good at what you do, you will find they will often bring you in underwing once you establish a relationship with them. I think finding a guild is also a big help to wiggling your way in a bit easier, but it isn't always necessary. One of my own character's favorite go to people to do shadow work isn't in a guild at all that I know of.


I tend to lead towards people that are invested in one character a bit more than there others as it's just less of a hassle to keep poking them to change to their other alts. It's really frustrating to establish a friendship with someone, finally to a point in which your character begins to trust them and reach out to for certain matters.. but then poofs, because the player suddenly wants to play something else. So those that are around the most, are the ones that I usually invest the most myself in getting to know. Otherwise the longer lasting plot tends to grind down to a halt.

[mastajabba]

Just throwing this out there, going on the discord chat helps a lot to get to know players behind the chat and you can express that you want to go on on going events. As discord chat acts much like the OOC talk part in paper and pen games.

You also find that even if you dislike the character (looking at you Shanky Hanner Blackrose) the player is hilarious and you look forward to talking to them. It also helps you meet players across factions and helps you steer you in directions you need to go to get involved.

[Kiran]

Hey all,

My thought on the matter is, the DM's do all they can usually to involve new players, or at least the dm's of today do from what I have seen, but as people mention, here is a plot item... I pass the plot item on... veterans now have plot item alongside 20 other plot items.

I actually used to when early on in my time on the server make a game of trying to pass as many plots/plot items anyone brought up or showed my character onto Sirion, simply because it was entertaining to see how many people would literally just do that... "Go speak to Sirion, he is an archmage, he knows stuff"

I think is more up to the veterans/guild leaders and those active individuals who have these plots items to somehow think of a way to involve those new people who seem keen or especially seem a bit nervous/new to make them tag along with etc.

The issue is, a lot of these plot devices/items are sensitive as mentioned and many would not want the "evils" to find out, and who is to say that little Timmy who just joined the server is not a pretend knight? Is not secretly the new Darklord of the Zhents in the making? Is he going to pass this information to get in good with the bad guys?! Damnit Timmy you monster..!

But honestly, I think the shift is not on the DM's, but the veteran players, or those who get the plots, to try and involve people, as much as possible that makes sense. Maybe this is Timmy's test and we go with this plot device that might just hurt a small... town... and not the one that might destroy Baldur gate.. let's see if Timmy is a good guy... or the next betrayer of all.

And if Timmy turns out evil, that's a whole plot in itself. Contact him OOC and say awesome work new guy Timmy, your character might have learned from rumours this and that.. encourage evil Timmy... or good Timmy...

All it takes is one kind word or reaching out to these new people, plot items or not.