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Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:09 am
by Steve
Sadly, the Wizard Toolbox is a small, wee little box:
Anyway, Mage dmg spells are just show, and only have a real high utility in PvP. The real power lay in high DC save or die AoE spells. Or, some ability with Domination buffing and/or Polymorphing and buffing (which is efficient but a slow grind).
I'll also add, everyone just uses potions or wands for Invisibility, Mirrors, Displacement, Shadow Shield. It's not like the Illusion School is ONLY for Illusionists, nor do they even get some extra benefit from School Focus like Necromancy, Transmutation, Conjuration!
I could go on and on. But who's listening, right? Hi Zanniej!!
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:30 am
by Hoihe
Louvaine wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:16 pm
I always wondered if there could be more done on Spell Focus' feats. Seems only Evo, Conju, Necro and Trans got something worth attention. Maybe this is the way to go... somehow?
On an NWN1 server, those PCs who take Illusion specialist school (at cost of another), and take ESF Illusion get Phantasmal Killer on a 3 minute CD as a spell-like ability. Kind of like re-ignite evokation, but for a single spell.
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am
by [DM] Grinning Death
Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:53 pm
Illusion affects the level of Glass Doppleganger and Simulacrum.
Divination affects the effectiveness of some sanctuary effects like Foresight.
Abjuration might affect some abjuration spells but I can't remember.
Enchantment does nothing atm.
All four of these might receive additional effects later, they are not finished.
From the Devs mouths in regards to epic spell focus feats.
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:46 am
by Steve
[DM] Grinning Death wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am
Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:53 pm
Illusion affects the level of Glass Doppleganger and Simulacrum.
Divination affects the effectiveness of some sanctuary effects like Foresight.
Abjuration might affect some abjuration spells but I can't remember.
Enchantment does nothing atm.
All four of these might receive additional effects later, they are not finished.
From the Devs mouths in regards to epic spell focus feats.
Ha! That’s great. Do we know by how much? Same as Conjuration for summons?
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:14 am
by matelener
The only "special" thing about the illusion focus line is that it increases HD limit of Glass Doppelganger by 2 HD per spell focus.
P.S. It's one of the most undervalued spells ever
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:52 am
by Louvaine
Those "doppleganger" spells are nothing to write home about. Someone mentioned enchantment above and I agree that it's also a forgotten child. I love the idea of a PC enchanter / illusionist and might at some point go that way, but I'd really expect not to play much with that character in PvE/PvP, seeing the state it is in current setting. For me, it's just a cool idea to roleplay.
matelener wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:14 am
P.S. It's one of the most undervalued spells ever
Why do you think it's undervalued? It's not like you can use it on your ally, since it allows you to check our their builds and therefore most of your allies won't let you use it on them. We all hate metagaming. I'm really curious to hear your thoughts.
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:02 am
by Ewe
You can buff things all you want, it doesn't matter! My duergar is immune to both spells by merits of racial abilities!
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:17 am
by Steve
Ewe wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:02 am
You can buff things all you want, it doesn't matter! My duergar is immune to both spells by merits of racial abilities!
*angry fist shakin*
also:
Subject: Allow for Dominating Yellow Name Mobs
izzul wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:42 am
does shadow simulacrum, or glass doppleganger work on yellow mobs?
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:48 am
by Planehopper
Enchantment as a school hurts. It is a lot of fun early on but it would probably be even worse now with less variety in areas to adventure in at higher levels and immune bosses, its not a good time.
Originally played an enchantment/conjuration focused mage and quickly found that both of those wane in late levels, enchantment especially.
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:13 am
by Steve
Planehopper wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:48 am
Enchantment as a school hurts. It is a lot of fun early on but it would probably be even worse now with less variety in areas to adventure in at higher levels and immune bosses, its not a good time.
Originally played an enchantment/conjuration focused mage and quickly found that both of those wane in late levels, enchantment especially.
Mid-last year, there was a mechanical change that Enchantment (Dominate, Charm, Hold line) can now work on Yellow Named "Bosses," perhaps even now real Bosses (the latter I haven't tested).
That was a major change, and as you say, really REALLY upgrades the play for an Enchanter. Now...Make Illusion Great Again!!!
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:23 am
by Zkenic
[DM] Grinning Death wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am
Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:53 pm
Illusion affects the level of Glass Doppleganger and Simulacrum.
Divination affects the effectiveness of some sanctuary effects like Foresight.
Abjuration might affect some abjuration spells but I can't remember.
Enchantment does nothing atm.
All four of these might receive additional effects later, they are not finished.
From the Devs mouths in regards to epic spell focus feats.
Spell Focus Abjuration does nothing at the moment.
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:56 pm
by Rhifox
There were attempts to make Enchantment allow you to bring mobs across zones, but it didn't pan out (it worked in local testing, but the mobs kept despawning on live server tests). Maybe we can look at that again at some point.
As for buffing spell focuses... eh. Hot take, but I'm not a fan of that whole system tbh. I think the buffs to them have overloaded way too much into these feats (especially certain schools), making them feel practically mandatory in a lot of cases. I'd really rather the Spell Focus line be returned to what it was: DC-boosting feats. Some schools benefit from DCs and some don't, and that was perfectly fine. But right now the benefits to DC do not outweigh the non-DC benefits gained by taking spell focuses. Many times lately I've wanted to take DC spell focuses but end up ignoring them in favor of Conjuration spell focuses for the summon buffs, as those are vastly more useful on the server. Plus, the whole point of adding more to spell focus feats was to buff the schools that didn't get any benefit out of them, but all we ended up doing was buffing the ones that were already good. Abjuration and Divination were the schools that needed help, and never got any. Conjuration and Necromancy did not need help (especially Conjuration, which is still needed even for Necromancers because Augment Summon/Beckon the Frozen require SF Conjuration lol. That is something I'll be fixing for next update).
On topic, we can try to look at stuff to do for PK and Weird. I like matelener's suggestions where each successive save failed imposes more effects.
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:03 pm
by Steve
Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:56 pm
On topic, we can try to look at stuff to do for PK and Weird. I like matelener's suggestions where each successive save failed imposes more effects.
I appreciate any attention that can be given, but still we are NOT YET talking about balancing Illusion to, say, Necromancy.
Let’s look at Wail of the Banshee. Colossal area, Fortitude or Die to a number of mobs equal to Caster Level. Is WoB just OP, and other Schools shouldn’t get pumped to what Necromancy can achieve? Is then WoB going to get a Will save check added to it as well?
I do like the idea of successive effects based on checks, but unless this approach is not going to be applied across all Schools, it still isn’t really helping to be an attractive alternative.
Alternatively, some NEW Illusion school spells could be added, like Superior Invisibility (needs Save/check for balancing), Scintillating Pattern, Shadow Evocation (and Greater version), allow Shadow Conjuration, Greater to
function like PnP, Shadowy Grappler.
I know it’s a big ask, but...it can’t hurt to ask, right???
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:51 pm
by Hoihe
Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:56 pm
There were attempts to make Enchantment allow you to bring mobs across zones, but it didn't pan out (it worked in local testing, but the mobs kept despawning on live server tests). Maybe we can look at that again at some point.
As for buffing spell focuses... eh. Hot take, but I'm not a fan of that whole system tbh. I think the buffs to them have overloaded way too much into these feats (especially certain schools), making them feel practically mandatory in a lot of cases. I'd really rather the Spell Focus line be returned to what it was: DC-boosting feats. Some schools benefit from DCs and some don't, and that was perfectly fine. But right now the benefits to DC do not outweigh the non-DC benefits gained by taking spell focuses. Many times lately I've wanted to take DC spell focuses but end up ignoring them in favor of Conjuration spell focuses for the summon buffs, as those are vastly more useful on the server. Plus, the whole point of adding more to spell focus feats was to buff the schools that didn't get any benefit out of them, but all we ended up doing was buffing the ones that were
already good. Abjuration and Divination were the schools that needed help, and never got any. Conjuration and Necromancy did not need help (especially Conjuration, which is still needed even for Necromancers because Augment Summon/Beckon the Frozen require SF Conjuration lol.
That is something I'll be fixing for next update).
On topic, we can try to look at stuff to do for PK and Weird. I like matelener's suggestions where each successive save failed imposes more effects.
Would there be any ways to boost Specialist Wizards? At the moment, they're only worth it if you're a low-int wizard for extra slots which is... A bit amusing to say the least.
Could help remove the feeling of obligation if you're forced to sacrifice something for it.
Re: Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:01 pm
by Rhifox
Hoihe wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:51 pm
Would there be any ways to boost Specialist Wizards? At the moment, they're only worth it if you're a low-int wizard for extra slots which is... A bit amusing to say the least.
Could help remove the feeling of obligation if you're forced to sacrifice something for it.
Possible. 3rd edition was basically the only one that gave zero actual benefits for specialization. 2e, Pathfinder, and 5e all give special abilities to specialists. So could easily draw ideas from all of those.
Of course, nobody ever wants to give spellcasters more buffs, heh.