Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

To be fair, elixirs are expansive and there is a reason i focus on rp. The whole kaedrin pack is imbalance in itself I just learned to assume most pc knows how to rack munchkin better than i do.

Nalissa mostly gets her butt kicked about 90% of times hells her defeat by khali was what triggered a big part of her present progression an advancement.

I mostly gift elixirs rp and try finding imaginative potential of making elixirs. I also thing having some cl up to lv 30 is the only advantage of being master alchemist. Nerf the class and no one will buy any of them rendering the main appeal void and useless.

Two spells are the issue focus on them, not on nerfing an entiere class as it would be unfair. The class requires many feats as sacrifice wich is an investment rather than a power hous of munchkinism.

And to be fair if i pvp, i always envision losing first hand why I try focusing on interraction and build appropriate for the character, not to win but bring concepts to light.

I really really missed these threads.

There are many builds that can solo a white dragon without elixirs.

They've been there for a while and didn't absolutely break the game to be unplayable. All you'll do with this nerf is just give less reasons for people to have master alchemists that they have to level up first.

Y'all need to chill and run actual tests like QC used to do instead of being reactionary and driven on passing outrage.

This not reactionary, thank you very much. Having CL 30 elixirs is a poor decision.

Ravial wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:36 am There are many builds that can solo a white dragon without elixirs.

They've been there for a while and didn't absolutely break the game to be unplayable. All you'll do with this nerf is just give less reasons for people to have master alchemists that they have to level up first.

Y'all need to chill and run actual tests like QC used to do instead of being reactionary and driven on passing outrage.

AGREED

Vagrant wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:10 am To my loving Nerfers,

People love to complain about things that are inconsequential and not their idea. The moment someone finds an interesting and fun angle to this game out come the haters to cry foul.

The entire structure of the leveling system, PrCs and gear is unbalanced. We have mobs of godlike beings standing around campfires chatting about the weather.

Yet someone seems to be having fun and is apparently successful, with one trivial element, and here comes the outrage?

Is your immersion being threatened by potions of Tortoise Shell and Owl's Insight?

Are you sure you're playing the game or are you playing other people's game?

AGREED



I feel some people need to really to think why it upsets them. Is it really breaking the game for you or is it something more rooted and personal. Personally, I feel it’s the latter. Just leave well enough alone.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:52 am

Vagrant wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:10 am To my loving Nerfers,

People love to complain about things that are inconsequential and not their idea. The moment someone finds an interesting and fun angle to this game out come the haters to cry foul.

The entire structure of the leveling system, PrCs and gear is unbalanced. We have mobs of godlike beings standing around campfires chatting about the weather.

Yet someone seems to be having fun and is apparently successful, with one trivial element, and here comes the outrage?

Is your immersion being threatened by potions of Tortoise Shell and Owl's Insight?

Are you sure you're playing the game or are you playing other people's game?

Problem: If this becomes the norm, then people will demand more difficult content. Soon, what was an optional powerspike becomes mandatory.

Either in form of our new areas mandating the use of tort elixirs to get enough AC to not die within moments, or DMs balancing for tort elixir etc and demanding absurd amounts of AC to have a chance - which will eliminate others' ability to have fun by forcing them to bin their builds or stay out of things for playing a lore-wise powerful class combination that lacks what's possible through min-maxing.

In a few words: the issue is power creep, which can lead to forcing those not interested to participate or be left behind.

The issue is powercreep your correct. Yet the people who are the prime examples and inventors of the powercreep never get the light of day on on how the creep works, how they made it and how to help fix it. Instead we get what we see here... non powercreep campfire RPers trying to throw absurd nerfs to problems they never understood until a one-sided thread is posted about it from an outside source. Then you have people who actually enjoy their class AK: Yugo getting the short end of the stick for something that is not their fault.

Yugo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:54 am To be fair, elixirs are expansive and there is a reason i focus on rp. The whole kaedrin pack is imbalance in itself I just learned to assume most pc knows how to rack munchkin better than i do.

Nalissa mostly gets her butt kicked about 90% of times hells her defeat by khali was what triggered a big part of her present progression an advancement.

I mostly gift elixirs rp and try finding imaginative potential of making elixirs. I also thing having some cl up to lv 30 is the only advantage of being master alchemist. Nerf the class and no one will buy any of them rendering the main appeal void and useless.

Two spells are the issue focus on them, not on nerfing an entiere class as it would be unfair. The class requires many feats as sacrifice wich is an investment rather than a power hous of munchkinism.

And to be fair if i pvp, i always envision losing first hand why I try focusing on interraction and build appropriate for the character, not to win but bring concepts to light.

And to be clear this person is correct. If you nerf the entirety of the class to make it so their potions are less effective the class itself will fall into the same void category as all other decisions by the staff to nerf classes and see no players picking it up and other players throwing it out. 2 niche potions being created that made a SINGLE build powerful enough to solo the white dragon should not be a cry to slam this entire class down a peg. Because I find it very interesting that no one was complaining about potions until someone showcased in ONE example how TWO potions out of the the hundreds of potions out there made their build strong. If your going to nerf anything you target the strong points of the potions used that the team considers to be "to strong".

Another prime example of the community jumping to rushed decisions on how to fix problems found by the minority. Hmm...

Did someone solo something or kill someone using elixirs?

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:40 am This not reactionary, thank you very much. Having CL 30 elixirs is a poor decision.

And only after how many years you have a problem with that?

It's not a poor choice. It comes with significant time and resource investment (which also requires time to spend).

Again, as I've said, there are many builds- MANY BUILDS- that can kill a white dragon without use of elixirs. If your argument is that elixirs allow you to perform in absolutely ungodly ways in both pve and pvp, then you better prepare to nerf a lot of builds and class combinations that people play on this server to ensure their character is unbeatable in pvp.

Rain touches on something important here, though it may not be intentional so won’t point it out more.

But it ties into how in game mechanics conflicts with in game too.

Making elixirs in game... you sell it for profit or go and hunt them out.

There’s a suspension of belief; economics is a disaster of a thing to learn, game economics as much, and maybe pretend money ultimately has no value compared to the experience surrounding it.

Since the loot change happened, any not strong enough build cannot loot anywhere.

so unless you make an extremely strong powerebuild you are left of using these elixirs and hoping you can have enough AC to survive the boss in your cl area.


An example,


I have a level 30 mhat went to the fire giant , in a group not alone. and even with tortoise shell and improve mage armor, I got wrecked. Had to be extra careful in every combat and spent a lot of healing poitiopn.

I died at the fire Gian king. I did not charge him alone, I waited for him to be in combat for a while before attacking him. The AI seems to know that I have the lowest ac so it turned on me as soon as I was in range. It killed me really quickly.

With the split, you cannot be raised on server 2 ( if they do it you stay in fugue and talk to myrkul and he sends you to baldurs gate saying you dont belong here. You dont have the choice to spawn in soubar. but that is another point.


so I talked to myrkul and took the xp loss, spawned in SOubar and ran back up the fire giant, trying to get there as fast as I could to continue the run, I brought back every mobs with me, and took a couple of healing potion. and was able to join my group again.

I went insdide the fire giant king cave and the mobs had reset so I had to went out without looting that cave.


we moved to the balors, and again same thing happened, he killed me in a couple of swift hit.

Long story short, for one run, I used 2 elixir and died both time. and was not able to loot the two bosses


My point is this, Yes maybe on powerbuild Tortoise shell elixir and the likes are too powerful , I don't know I dont play one. But on non powerbuilder they are one of the only way to survive hunting in their cl areas.


So if you really want to consider debuffing these elixir, I would start by debuffiung the bosses so that they dont get necessary to simply survive.

Rain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:48 am If your going to nerf anything you target the strong points of the potions used that the team considers to be "too strong".

This, right here.

I don't see anything so overly broken about CL30 elixirs that would justify nerfing the entire class. Is it unrealistic that they're more powerful than what a level 30 archmage can scribe? Sure, I guess. But that's the way scribing scrolls has been coded, and not MA's fault, no need to punish them for it.

FWIW, I've never bought a single elixir ever, simply because I don't feel like I need them to survive content, despite half of my builds being gimps(plus, I'm a miser when it comes to spending gold). That being said, if there's certain content that players feel like they'll never see because of overpowered mobs, elixirs are a nice way to help them try and do that. If players want to use them to go and pummel the white dragon or whatever? Great, they can go do that too. It doesn't affect my experience or RP either way.

abousalif wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:19 am So if you really want to consider debuffing these elixir, I would start by debuffiung the bosses so that they dont get necessary to simply survive.

+1. If we're going to talk about swinging the nerf bat, lets start with looking at some of the content instead of poor little alchemists.

Ravial wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:54 am And only after how many years you have a problem with that?

Four, actually.

Where you been?!?

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:29 pm

Ravial wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:54 am And only after how many years you have a problem with that?

Four, actually.

Where you been?!?

Slept for a long time since then

As a DM I can say before I start my sessions that I now look at everyone and know what I can and can’t spawn. Not a fan of nerf guns in DnD. The rules of the game in 2.0,3.0 and 3.5 were pretty specific and I’m fairly certain that’s what we’re playing. But that’s just me

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:41 am There is a 15 CL cap on scrolls, but Elixirs are skewing the power curve. Shouldn’t there be some sort of “reigning in” here? Maybe a CL cap of 20? Maybe a greater toxicity malus? CL 30 is bogus because of 100% immunity to Gr. Dispel. Elixirs ain’t no gin and juice fun ride, either. Where is the risk?!?

Hello again.

I just wanted to offer a reminder that part of this request is technically already instituted. Much like Potions and Scrolls, any self-target-only spells that are made into elixirs have a CL 15 cap. As a result, there is a significantly smaller list of spells than "every spells minus the four listed in my previous post".

As such, this type of nerf is already fairly broadly applied to the class, with very few high-demand spells still available at CL30. There are some situational healing items, like Regenerate and Rejuvenating Cocoon, but their effects are tangibly more expensive than Heal Potions for the same health. Beyond that, buffs fall into either "Ignorable", like CL 30 Endure Elements or Energy Immunity which functionally don't change how the spell interacts; or "Game changers" that enable and magnify specific builds, like the druid/monk combo enabled by Turtle/Insight.

It is my personal opinion that these "Game changer" spells should be addressed on an individual level, rather than further hammer the class with broad changes given the pruning it has already received.

For the record, I would love brewing 9th level spells at the cost of 5 more class levels