Zen archery

[Zkenic]

Again Zen Archery is just better on Rangers. Ignore owls insight for a bit.

AB - The same.
AC - Always better. Even assuming 34dex/18wisdom buffed compared to 18dex/34 wisdom buffed, you will still get +4 extra AC due to the fact that you dont get the +4 wisdom to AC with a dex build, but you do get the +4 dex to AC with the Zen build. This AC can go up even more depending on how much you want to min-max and start with higher dex while still going the wisdom build, but for the sake of argument I am assuming we are just swapping dex and wisdom while leaving the lower stat at 14.
Spell Slots - Near doubled. You go from 4/4/3-4/3-4 to 7-8/7/6-7/6-7. Rangers animal companions are bad if you dont invest in them, but if you take the feats and actually buff the creatures they can do work. For example, you will pretty much always want to buff yourself with the second level spells barkskin, halo of sand, cats grace/bears endurance (you cant get both +4 con/dex items unless you RNG got lucky and have one in a non-gloves spot), and hawkeye. With an animal companion you'll need a second barkskin, jagged tooth, cats grace, bears endurance, and nature's favor.
Spot vs Hide/MS - Fair enough, equal out the amount lost from hide/ms and add it to spot/listen.
Saves - Loss of Reflex and increase in Will. With the way the +20saves cap works (applies to items, spellcraft, spells, but does not apply to stats and base saves), having a more balanced reflex and will is better in my opinion. Rangers get high fort/ref, so shoring up their one bad save seems quite valuable to me. That being said, because the total saves are going to be the same (loss of reflex equal to gain in wisdom) I wont argue too much about it being better or worse.

Ok, but now add Owls Insight, and suddenly you also have.
AB - +4 over dex.
AC - +8 over dex.


+4AC is a clear better pick. Add in +4AB and bump the AC to +8 and a Zen Archery Ranger build is a clear tier above dex ranger bow builds. Ranged builds usually suffer from mediocre AC, but a 27ranger/3monk can get tank levels of AC (60+). If I am going for a dex ranged build, I am better off going crossbow or doing a fighter/assassin/AA combo.

[mrm3ntalist]

Ok, I am not going to say that you are wrong. Have you played a DEX and WIS ranger on the server?

[mrm3ntalist]

Anyway, I assume you have not, so let me add a couple of things.

- Zen archery does not give you extra ac. Monk gives you extra ac. So a ranger26/monk4 WIS based will have the same AC with a DEX based, only that you spend one feat to get Zen archery.
- The animal companion has great stats. I have been trying for years to make it work. The dumb AI and the lack of regen makes the pet require constant healing in epic areas. If you spend feats to improve it, one preepic and one epic, then that is 3 feats that you would have spent with Zen archery.
- Yes you get more spell slots, something essential for the animal companion, but for your character, 14WIS is more than enough to have all the self buffs
- Finally if you have played a WIS ranger you would have noticed the bug with manyshot and maybe how more important for the survivability of the ranger DEX is. Higher stealth means less chance to be detected which is essential for an acher.
- EDIT: And not to forget double one shot

Again Zen Archery is just better on Rangers. Ignore owls insight for a bit.

AB - The same.
AC - Always better. Even assuming 34dex/18wisdom buffed compared to 18dex/34 wisdom buffed, you will still get +4 extra AC due to the fact that you dont get the +4 wisdom to AC with a dex build, but you do get the +4 dex to AC with the Zen build. This AC can go up even more depending on how much you want to min-max and start with higher dex while still going the wisdom build, but for the sake of argument I am assuming we are just swapping dex and wisdom while leaving the lower stat at 14.
Spell Slots - Near doubled. You go from 4/4/3-4/3-4 to 7-8/7/6-7/6-7. Rangers animal companions are bad if you dont invest in them, but if you take the feats and actually buff the creatures they can do work. For example, you will pretty much always want to buff yourself with the second level spells barkskin, halo of sand, cats grace/bears endurance (you cant get both +4 con/dex items unless you RNG got lucky and have one in a non-gloves spot), and hawkeye. With an animal companion you'll need a second barkskin, jagged tooth, cats grace, bears endurance, and nature's favor.
Spot vs Hide/MS - Fair enough, equal out the amount lost from hide/ms and add it to spot/listen.
Saves - Loss of Reflex and increase in Will. With the way the +20saves cap works (applies to items, spellcraft, spells, but does not apply to stats and base saves), having a more balanced reflex and will is better in my opinion. Rangers get high fort/ref, so shoring up their one bad save seems quite valuable to me. That being said, because the total saves are going to be the same (loss of reflex equal to gain in wisdom) I wont argue too much about it being better or worse.

Ok, but now add Owls Insight, and suddenly you also have.
AB - +4 over dex.
AC - +8 over dex.


+4AC is a clear better pick. Add in +4AB and bump the AC to +8 and a Zen Archery Ranger build is a clear tier above dex ranger bow builds. Ranged builds usually suffer from mediocre AC, but a 27ranger/3monk can get tank levels of AC (60+). If I am going for a dex ranged build, I am better off going crossbow or doing a fighter/assassin/AA combo.

[YYA]

Just going to throw this in, any ranged ranger could just hold a sling, and use a +4 Heavy Shield for a total of +6 AC at the cost of... Nothing really. Spend a feat on Tower Shield or Multiclass with Fighter to get a total of +8 AC at the cost of -2 AB.

Anyhow, I had a level 30 Ranger on this server, Wisdom based, and full investment on Animal Companion: both feats to increase the HD. I leveled it up from level 1 to 30, so no RCR shenanigans. I also took all four Combat Focus feats, for that +4AB and Damage every now and then. My chosen animal Companion on that character was the Panther, which I commanded to sneak around so that it would approach and block enemies that were rushing at my character without being initially targeted, as that would complicate AI pathfinding and potentially let my character get a round or two combat without the enemy actually fighting back.

As for the Ranger Spell Book, I would actually use Skin of the Cactus spell on my panther, which also acts as a way to save spell slots for other things, in addition to all other long term animal companion buff spell. The short term spells would only be cast as needed. Then, I would have one cast of Tree Stride memorized, along with Non-Detection, and then people should give a try at the Arrowsplit (Which means that you get 1d4 +1 attacks on a button press) and Bloodfreeze Arrow Reserve-spells. I would start combat with a High DC Bloodfreeze arrow, followed by Arrowsplits and/or Manyshots. Oh yeah, I often had a Programmed Image walking about, as another distraction, but it seems that the Ranger spellbook no longer seems to get it, sad.

In my experience, I never felt that I had to sneak around, or that I would have had to use HiPS to survive. Well, never fought against the 'Big Bad Boss' monsters, because the regular mobs just dropped like flies. I have no idea what is the actual state of monster spawning in the Troll Claw Cave today, but I literally god banned from this server because a group of players got upset because they couldn't bother to come up with some RP excuse to form party -- or just a send a tell if they could mooch of the experience OOC:ly -- while my character was killing all those trolls too fast.

Oh, and it has not been mentioned... Rangers have Heal as class skill, Wisdom boosts it. 33 (Skill ranks) + 10 (Or more) + 20 (Max Roll) +1 (Healing kit Bonus) = 64+ HP healed per hit point.

But ehh, it was years ago, so mileage may be different today.

Edit: and no, never had any Elixirs of Owl's Insight.

[JustAnotherGuy]

The only thing that needs to be said about Zen Archery, imo, is that yes, it boosts your AB. But it does NOT boost damage. WIS rangers can hit very well with Zen archery. But their damage is very low compared to a DEX or STR build. So again, that's all that needs to be said, imo.

[Deathgrowl]

The only thing that needs to be said about Zen Archery, imo, is that yes, it boosts your AB. But it does NOT boost damage. WIS rangers can hit very well with Zen archery. But their damage is very low compared to a DEX or STR build. So again, that's all that needs to be said, imo.

Dex will be exactly the same, surely, as far as damage goes? Unless you go for crossbow sniper, that is.

[YYA]

Dexterity, higher stealth, sneak attack dice, etc... Hence more damage. For example, the Ranger 21/Assassin 9 build. Not as powerful today as it were on this server, but still notable extra damage when you pop out of stealth with Manyshot Sneak Attacks.

Monk 20/Assassin 10 could be the wisdom variant of it, Greater Flurry of Blows, Blazing Aura, Shurikens, and popping out of stealth. You could go all in on wisdom, but your stealth skills are not that far behind any old dexterity based sneaker.

Ranger/Assassin with Improved Rapid shot could have his Manyshot Attack cover his entire first attack flurry, and it used to total for potential 30d6 Sneak Attack Damage, these days it totals at only 18d6. A Monk/Assassin with Greater Flurry of Blows alone also has three attacks in his first attack flurry, so he can potentially deal 15d6 Sneak Attack Damage, plus the fire damage from Blazing Aura.

The Ranger/Assassin could sit at Sneak Attack ABs of:
27 (BAB)
+ 12 (Dexterity Modifier)
+ 4 (Weapon Enchantment)
+ 2 (Bane of Enemies)
+ 2 (Potion of Heroism)
+ 1 (Weapon Focus)
+ 1 (Epic Prowess)
- 8 (Manyshot)
= 41, 36, 31...

The Monk Assassin could sit at Sneak Attack ABs of:
22 (BAB)
+ 12 (Wisdom modifier without Owl's Insight Elixir)
+ 4 (Weapon Enchantment)
+ 2 (Potion of Heroism)
+ 1 (Weapon Focus)
+ 1 (Epic Prowess)
= 42, 42, 37...

Now, the Ranger/Assassin will still deal way more damage against anything that happens to be a favored enemy. +5 Favored Enemy, +2d6 Bane of Enemies, etc. But our Monk could get Intuitive Attack as well, with Fiery Fist, etc and not really have to worry about his AC to the same extend as our Ranger Does.

[artemitavik]

Really, all this throwing stats up IMO boils down to:

Zen Archery is Fine. Leave it alone.