Zen archery

[Kaden Asen]

Is in my opinion not a overpowered feat as intended. To allow wisdom based characters to engage in ranged combat.

That said, we have +8 potions for wisdom. Add in a dash of monk and we’ve got a broke stat, perhaps we could limit the use of the feat as it was originally intended? Something like it’s melee counter part?

Two out of every three levels you have must be MONK. i.e. a level 30 must have at least 20 levels of the monk class. The feat will not work if you go break this rule

Instead of monk only, wisdom based/medium ab classes and their PRCs?

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

It sounds like an elixir issue, not zen archery issue. Zen archery itself is not better in any regard than dex archery, oftentime it's even worse (heavier stat split, extra feat spent). Plus, this feat is not even tied to monk, monk only lets you receive wis-to-AC and be on par with Dex-archers who receive dex to AC automatically. It has nothing to do with zen archery, it's just a good Wis synergy. You can add monk to your Dex archer as well for the same benefits.

[mastajabba]

Rangers, clerics, Paladin receive Zen Archery as well. The feat it’s not broken. I agree with the statement above

[Kaden Asen]

Either way, was just pointing out what I believe to be a considerable imbalance of the current patch. I personally don’t mind the elixirs, although I agree that owls might need to be off the list.

It’s not broken, what is broken is that a AB/AC stat is receiving a +8 boost

[mrm3ntalist]

Again it is the monk synergy with owls insight. DEX is still a much better stat for archers in my opinion. But make a DEX ranger 26/monk4 with two one shots, use elixirs of Owls, Tortoise and GR stoneskin for example and you can go killing everything in pvp with a lot of damage from rangers' FEs and the two "oneshot feats", High AB, and high AC from DEX and WIS to AC. Having umd and being able to cast heroism or gr. heroism. That will be a hunter that tea bugs everything in pvp if that is how you want to play this game.

[artemitavik]

Having done PVP with and against people with Zen archery as well as PVE, I have exactly no issues with how it currently runs. Complete Warrior, where Zen Archery comes from has exactly no prerequisites other than BAB of +1 and 13 wisdom. Limiting it to "you must have monk levels" would make exactly no sense IMO based on the clear original intent of the feat.

What we have is not a broke stat because it's not being used as intended, what we have is a broke stat because everyone is running around at level 30 with level 30 buffs floating around like (expensive) candy. DND is actually simply not designed for the massive proliferation of epic characters the server has.

Yeah, I believe there are many balance issues the staff is constantly trying to tweak to make game play smooth, and I appreciate their efforts. But IMO, this isn't one that needs to be borked with.

I can't remember where Insightful strike was taken from, homebrew or a manual, to compare/contrast.

[matelener]

Zen archery isn't so good because manyshot AB doesn't calculate properly with it.

+12 WIS elixirs though...

[gotesu]

There are a bunch of buffs that pushes up some heavy combat bonuses (and that goes to both druid and cleric ones).
Aside of giving a bump to DCs, in what manner does this stands out above others when it comes to combat bonuses?

[YYA]

That said, we have +8 potions for wisdom. Add in a dash of monk and we’ve got a broke stat, perhaps we could limit the use of the feat as it was originally intended? Something like it’s melee counter part?

Actually, we do not. Owl's Insight is capped at +12 wisdom (modifier of +6), and default Owl's Wisdom is +4 wisdom (modifier of +2). Thus one gulp of Elixir of Owl's Insight is additional +4 AB compared to a potion of Owl's Wisdom, and you can buy potions of Owl's Wisdom in both Baldur's Gate and and S'shamath for a hundred gold coins or so each, and you can probably find them elsewhere as well.

As for the Monk's Wisdom to AC, how much did you raise your dexterity, because that the other primary source of your AC. How high is your constitution modifier? How high is your strength modifier, and your general carrying capacity? Because a Paladin can self-buff himself +8 Strength and Charisma, and a Barbarian's Epic Rage nets +10 to strength, which any old +2 Strength item can transforms into that +12. Points in strength also considerably increase your damage per hit, and up to "2,5*(Strength Modifier)" with Northlander Hewing feat...

In otherwords, the high Wisdom based AC does not manifest itself without some form of detriments.

And if we look at the following comment:

Again it is the monk synergy with owls insight. DEX is still a much better stat for archers in my opinion. But make a DEX ranger 26/monk4 with two one shots, use elixirs of Owls, Tortoise and GR stoneskin for example and you can go killing everything in pvp with a lot of damage from rangers' FEs and the two "oneshot feats", High AB, and high AC from DEX and WIS to AC. Having umd and being able to cast heroism or gr. heroism. That will be a hunter that tea bugs everything in pvp if that is how you want to play this game.

If there is one thing to add: buy some epic Shurikens, and turn on your Flurry of Blows for some extra attacks. (Base damage of Shuriken has been raised to 3d2 on this server.) And even without UMD, you can always buy potions of Heroism from NPC shops.

But as great as that build is, all someone needs to do is cast or drink a potion of Storm Avatar, and non-critical hit ranged attacks will simply never land. Not to mention that if the 'Two Shot' fails to take down a wisdom based Spirit Shaman, the above ranger might find himself with -10 to their strength Modifier from Maximized Moonbolt (Failed save scenario), and 12 Fire damage per round from Maximized Inferno... Etc.. And yes, it now enters the realm of Spell Mantles and what not, and whoever is willing to burn the largest pile of gold into UMD wins...

But even the above ranger is not flawless, and there are still weaknesses that could be exploited.



Anyhow, it is not Zen Archery that needs to have Monk's Intuitive Attack restrictions removed, it is the Intuitive Attack that doesn't need them anymore.

[EasternCheesE]

Either way, was just pointing out what I believe to be a considerable imbalance of the current patch. I personally don’t mind the elixirs, although I agree that owls might need to be off the list.

It’s not broken, what is broken is that a AB/AC stat is receiving a +8 boost

Well, owl's insight does grant +4 AC and +4 AB to Zen-archery PC who multiclass with monk (considering they have +4 wis item). But, they lose AB with taking monk dip because monk is medium BAB. Won't hurt much with 3-dip, but monk is an inevitable thing when someone wants to go wis and still max their AC. I myself always thought that AC bonus should be <= class level just like it works for phantom, but that ship sailed long ago.

[MrSmith]

Zen archery isn't so good because manyshot AB doesn't calculate properly with it.

+12 WIS elixirs though...

I made a Ranger Zen Archer build that used an epic 30th level Owl Insight elixir. At the start of any new combat and after my initiative roll, my character's first two attacks using Manyshot were calculated using his Dex instead of Wis, resulting in a -8/-7 AB. The actual penalty varied from -10 to -8/ -9 to -7...

+12 WIS elixirs provide no benefit to zen archers.

As per discussion with devs, manyshot is blackboxed and only works with dex. Sorry, nothing we can do here.

[Zkenic]

The only time Xen Archery becomes overpowered is the extreme synergy with rangers. You dip 3 monk for wisdom to AC and extra movement speed. You get a (do-me) of bonus spells over dex rangers (Kaedrin ranger spells are amazing). You get to have 100+spot and listen. You get full AB. You get all the ranged feats that require Dex from ranger. One of the most reliable, quick, easy,, and nongear dependent PvE cleaners in the game.

[mrm3ntalist]

The only time Xen Archery becomes overpowered is the extreme synergy with rangers.

I have not seen an overpowered WIS based ranger with zen archery... Definitely no more powerful than a DEX based ranger

You dip 3 monk for wisdom to AC and extra movement speed. You get a (do-me) of bonus spells over dex rangers (Kaedrin ranger spells are amazing). You get to have 100+spot and listen. You get full AB. You get all the ranged feats that require Dex from ranger.

I seriously doubt all the above. Yes you get higher detection but you get less stealth, which is more important for survivability. Yes you get more spell slots but you can get all essential self buffs with just 14WIS. The rest, for what? The pet? Even though BG has made some QOL improvements with companions, simply it does not worth to invest on it. The pet needs too much attention. I do not think you played a WIS and DEX ranger

One of the most reliable, quick, easy,, and nongear dependent PvE cleaners in the game.

Other than deflection and natural armor items rangers do need gear. A lot of it actually and more difficult to find than other classes. They need every AC item other than the two mentioned above + stealth and/or detection skill + saves.

STR rangers dwarf both DEX and WIS rangers.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Zen archery only gets superior when you drink Owl's insight elixir, because there's no buff that would give you +12 dex until reset. Without this spell in the picture, Zen archery is barely on par. More spot scores, less sneak scores. More spellslots, only one Oneshot.

[Steve]

Hahaha. Elixirs…again.