Is there any incentive for "dungeoneering" without a mechanical reward?

[MrSmith]

Gedweyignasia,
I appreciate your passion and all of the work you do in support of this server. Based on my current playing experience, I would not visit a dungeon without XP, Loot, or Combat more than once.

Just a quick intervention to ask to keep this as much on topic as possible…
The request was simple, what feels like a reward in a dungeon apart from loot?

The original poster’s question is straightforward but hardly simple. This is because the purpose behind the question is not clear. Without knowing Gedweyignasia personally, I firmly believe she wants to make our playing experience better. Unfortunately, “better” is a relative term based on where one person stands.

Personally, I completely disagree with the following assertions. They are one person’s opinion, and wholly inconsistent with the remarks already made.

It sounds like combat is not an enjoyable part of adventuring.

I opine this is not an accurate supposition as PvE and PvP are foundational components of the game. More importantly, I do not believe this thread constitutes a sample size that is adequate to make this inference.

It looks like our dungeons simply aren't fun, and I'm intent on fixing that.

I disagree, and I opine that if dungeons are not “fun” the reason is due to balance. It is no fun to be spammed with dispelling, Moon Bolt, etc. while bosses have countless immunities. I look forward to any efforts to fix these root causes.

Basically, it looks like the mechanical incentives explain nearly all of players' activities in dungeons. That's a failing on our part, because if dungeons were fun, people would go there to have fun, even without mechanical rewards. If dungeons offer nothing beyond the dopamine hit from mechanical progression, we're getting the fundamentals wrong. This was a very distressing discovery.

From what I am reading, you strongly believe it’s possible to have fun in a dungeon without “mechanical incentives/rewards”. Okay. I respect your opinion and I disagree with you. Even though I disagree, I would never impose my belief system on you and any other player.

On a serious note, what is it exactly that you find distressing? Typically, when anyone feels frustrated, the root cause of these feelings can be attributed to a perceived suppression of one or more of your personal values. I opine problem-solving (or being a problem solver) is something you value in life. If you are a problem-solver at heart, then you will also know the first step to solving any problem is to identify “the problem”.

Cheers!

[gedweyignasia]

Please remain on-topic.

[Blaze]

What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards?

My personal opinion and answer is: nothing

As said by many, if the risk increases, it is right that the reward is directly proportional to that.

Would it make sense to RP if it didn't impact players and setting? Nope

Killing monsters and having a reward is part of D&D, the problem is that some peopl apparently see it as pure grinding or mechanical part, when in reality in P&P it is the basis of a game session.

Offtopic note: it is 6th March and no graphs have been released, I would like to see how many people have left the server this month, after removing the scaling and increasing the frustration regarding the PvE.

[gedweyignasia]

If you would not visit a dungeon that provides no loot, XP, or other gains, please do not respond to this thread. Any such replies are off-topic.

Please stay on topic, so I don't have to ask moderators to clean up this thread.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

If dungeons did not provide any loot, XP, or other gains, what kind of dungeon would you enjoy visiting? Why? Can you describe the sort of adventure you'd like to have and the game systems that would support this?

If you would not visit a dungeon that provides no loot, XP, or other gains, please do not respond to this thread. Any such replies are off-topic.

Ones run by a DM.

It is largely assumed the point of adventuring is to acquire riches. There is no point to adventuring if there is no IC incentive, so any dungeon that lacks the gold/experience draw would need to provide an alternative IC reason for why the Player characters explore/delve.

See the 4th and 5th edtion assumption that the player character is out to save the world rather than better themselves

Very much this, D&D is a lot of things but the extreme majority of it has some sort of reward to it. NWN2 attempts translation, people log in to have their time rewarded by something, whether that be social interaction, item acquisition, telling a story as a DM, etc. If there is no reward, then what's the point of logging in?

[gedweyignasia]

Can a moderator please clean up all off-topic posts (including my own pleas for people to stay on topic), and then unlock this thread?

[Wyatt]

Alrighty folks. What I've done is split the topic as best I can and created a new one to discuss the merits of dungeons without mechanic rewards etc. I hope this will allow both discussions to happen simultaneously and that everyone can be heard on their respective topic without hijacking either one away from the intended discourse. Both discussions certainly have merit and as long as they stay on topic (and civil of course) we should be good.

If there are any issues please use the report function as usual.

[Snarfy]

Why in the holy high (do-me) have we split this topic? There are some replies that got shuffled to this one, despite being perfectly valid responses(and I'm not referring to mine)... like, really? "None" is a perfectly legitimate answer to the question "What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards?"

And the original post containing this... :

[quote=Grendunor post_id=935337 time=1646523090 user_id=16355]
It is largely assumed the point of adventuring is to acquire riches. There is no point to adventuring if there is no IC incentive, so any dungeon that lacks the gold/experience draw would need to provide an alternative IC reason for why the Player characters explore/delve.[/quote]


... seems to have been deleted entirely, and this segment only exists because someone quoted it, despite it ALSO being a valid and on topic response.

I'm blind!

BUT NOW I'VE GONE OFF TOPIC!!! Better split this thread too, since I cant seem to agree with the point of it's existence. (do-me) hell.

[Steve]

Playing a game… “the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles.”

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Why in the holy high (do-me) have we split this topic? There are some replies that got shuffled to this one, despite being perfectly valid responses(and I'm not referring to mine)... like, really? "None" is a perfectly legitimate answer to the question "What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards?

Echo chambering for one person; public validation over public conversation while abusing forum tools to accomplish it.

[mrm3ntalist]

Only DMs can make a dungeon interesting. Anything else, without a reward, it will be just a one time stand.

[DM Winter]

Having a dungeon without a mechanical reward (be it gold, loot or exp) is straight up bad, to me. "The reward are the friends we made along the way" is great and all, but it can be very very unsatisfying. This is a game, after all. And even if you compare it to PnP, even PnP dungeons HAVE mechanical rewards. It's part of the base of what D&D is.

I think the question should be "Beyond mechanical rewards, what are ways to make dungeoneering fun"

And to that, my answer is better constructed dungeons and mobs. More hand-tailored stuff, like what PnP would be, since a DM always hand tailors shit to the party. Obviously we cant perfectly replicate that in this game without a DM actually present, but trying to get close to it is what would make it fun.

No MMO spawner dungeons, make encounters actually make sense. Have a sense of progression through the dungeon. Have LORE in the dungeon. Have small little random events (prisioner, extra powerful version of normal mob, etc). That + what Rhifox already has been working on in making mobs more like PnP, with their unique traits and all. Less mobs with lazy design of 10K hp, 50 on each save, dispells on a 10 second cooldown and immunity to most effects, and more letting the player get away with cheesing bosses and trying out fun gimmicks.

edit: Obviously, this is way more work than being lazy and throwing inflated mobs on an MMO spawner. But thats a big part of why our dungeons are boring, and to make them not boring requires a good amount of work

[Domeq]

People would also enjoy having daily quests too, maybe weekly raids and perhaps an increase of purple loot?

[wangxiuming]

I don't think I would want to visit a dungeon voluntarily if there was no reward for the risk ... Unless, of course, there were some RP/story-reason to go there, but that would be a reward in itself.\

Edit: Apparently I posted in the wrong thread. Sorry, mods please move my post if possible!

Moved

[mrm3ntalist]

There is only one way to give player incentives to visit every dungeon. Have specific type of items to drop only at specific dungeons. Ie silver weapons only drop at the Forst keep, Sneak gear only drops at the lizard cave, spel slot gear drops at the ogr cave etc