Spell Components and RP

[Green Monster]

This is Forgotten Realms D&D 2E, and all that entails.

Creating undead is high up on the list of the most evil things you can do; that is not my opinion, that is a fact of this fictional setting.

It has cosmic metaphysical consequences in ways that stabbing a puppy just doesn't have.

Still beside the point.

[JustAnotherGuy]

the point is that someone else bringing outside knowledge into the game is BS. This is not PnP, so all PnP knowledge is out of game knowledge. And don't tell me that it is, cause PnP will have 1 dm, 4 players, and usually exactly 1 mage. There are dozens of mages on this server so if PnP components applied dwarves and gods know what else would all be extinct.

We bring outside knowledge into the game, every time we play. We follow the lore of FR decently close (though there are some discrepancies, such as already having chocolate on the coast!). A good for instance, though, is anyone who plays any toon who did not grow up on the coast. They have to go to sources outside the game in order to get any information on how to play their character.

As for spell descriptors, if a spell requires a component in PnP, it is generally accepted that it is required in the game, though we don't mechanically keep track of components in the game. With that being said, if I were speaking to someone who cast a spell and didn't know it required something horrible, I'd offer to retcon them casting that spell, and we could move on with our RP without any unintended IC conflict.

The answer here is not to deny that these things exist. It is to educate those who don't know, and to have patience with people who are learning. Updating spell descriptors in the game would be a good thing, in my opinion. However, when one plays a character, there is a certain expectation that they have "done their homework" to understand what that character is doing, too.

In the end, communication is key, as it is in many things. "Ah, you cast an evil spell!" "I didn't know it was evil!" "Oh, ok. Well, it is, and here's why. Want to retcon that?"

[sweetlikesplenda]

As a thought, there isn't always a black and white good or bad. In some cases it is, such as those spells with evil descriptor. There are also many and varying gods/dogmas. To one dogma, a spell, that does not have an evil descriptor on it, might be considered just as bad to someone of a certain clergy/religion/dogma/etc and they might say "You just did the equivalent of stabbed a puppy in the face by the standards of my faith" and they might react, event violently towards you. It's RP that may fit them. Even if you do not think you have done something wrong or view it the same way.

[Green Monster]

the point is that someone else bringing outside knowledge into the game is BS. This is not PnP, so all PnP knowledge is out of game knowledge. And don't tell me that it is, cause PnP will have 1 dm, 4 players, and usually exactly 1 mage. There are dozens of mages on this server so if PnP components applied dwarves and gods know what else would all be extinct.

We bring outside knowledge into the game, every time we play. We follow the lore of FR decently close (though there are some discrepancies, such as already having chocolate on the coast!). A good for instance, though, is anyone who plays any toon who did not grow up on the coast. They have to go to sources outside the game in order to get any information on how to play their character.

As for spell descriptors, if a spell requires a component in PnP, it is generally accepted that it is required in the game, though we don't mechanically keep track of components in the game. With that being said, if I were speaking to someone who cast a spell and didn't know it required something horrible, I'd offer to retcon them casting that spell, and we could move on with our RP without any unintended IC conflict.

The answer here is not to deny that these things exist. It is to educate those who don't know, and to have patience with people who are learning. Updating spell descriptors in the game would be a good thing, in my opinion. However, when one plays a character, there is a certain expectation that they have "done their homework" to understand what that character is doing, too.

In the end, communication is key, as it is in many things. "Ah, you cast an evil spell!" "I didn't know it was evil!" "Oh, ok. Well, it is, and here's why. Want to retcon that?"

Yeah, I agree with all of this. But again, I think knowing through my own research literally every component of every wizard spell is is a bit much for a game that's supposed to be fun. I don't mind researching basic geopolitical stuff but there are a LOT of spells. A game should not be that much work. That info should definitely be in game.

As to abyssal might specifically (which the character who was accused of having on didn't, but my wizard has cast on summons in the past), my problem is one of immersion in addition to my wizard having cast a spell involving a component she wouldn't use if I had known. As I said, logically if every time that spell was cast a dwarf child had to die there would be a serious affect upon the setting that we're just not seeing because that's a pretty popular spell to cast on summons. Dwarves would be nearly extinct or the spell would be impossible to have been cast as many times as it has.

That's where my suggestion of spell foci comes in. Like spell components but not consumed in the casting.

[RoseMiriel]

it's not right to hold your character accountable for that no. I wouldn't use half the spells if I was to rp those components I imagine If I remember right invisibility requires pixie wings!? That would make Invisibility evil.

Invisibility requires an eyelash.

oo phew well thats good! maybe it was potions of invis then.

[DaloLorn]

Everyone else is covering points #1 and #2 to my satisfaction, so I'll let them have at it. But as the guy who's likely going to have to tackle #3 and #4:

#3 is an incalculably messy project. You have to touch every spell, create Mystra-only-knows how many spell foci, sell the DMs on changing the way spell components work from PnP, implement the focus handling... and then to cap it all off, you need to fill every spellcaster's inventory with this stuff, because the specialty bag system is a kludge that already has to offload some of its functionality to the user in order to even approximate the intended design. Imagine if the mage forgot to select their focus bag before starting to unload half their spell list! Best-case scenario, they'd wait up to 20 minutes to rest, because we can't refund spell slots without a full rest (which would be highly exploitable). Worst-case scenario, they'd die because they failed to cast a spell at a critical moment. No. I am not coding that. Out of the question, end of story.

#4 I'm a little less hostile towards. Your proposed implementation is completely wrong, because the tech doesn't exist for it... but the gameplay of taking an extra turn and an extra Concentration check to raise your caster level is doable, in largely the same way as we do blood magic, multi-round spells, etc. Just can't tie it to Arcane Conversion like you think we can... oh, and by the way, Arcane Conversion is a thing that already exists and works on the server. For most mages, it's basically just a way to burn spell slots for no practical benefit, but if you have the Arcane Fire high arcana feat, then it becomes a ranged touch attack dealing 1d8 magical damage per Archmage or spell level, for a maximum of 19d8 off a level 9 spell converted by a level 10 Archmage.

Also, I'm disappointed that you made no mention of Eschew Materials in your proposal. I play basically all of my sorcerers as though they had that feat (... admittedly as a bonus feat on one of their items).

[Green Monster]

Everyone else is covering points #1 and #2 to my satisfaction, so I'll let them have at it. But as the guy who's likely going to have to tackle #3 and #4:

#3 is an incalculably messy project. You have to touch every spell, create Mystra-only-knows how many spell foci, sell the DMs on changing the way spell components work from PnP, implement the focus handling... and then to cap it all off, you need to fill every spellcaster's inventory with this stuff, because the specialty bag system is a kludge that already has to offload some of its functionality to the user in order to even approximate the intended design. Imagine if the mage forgot to select their focus bag before starting to unload half their spell list! Best-case scenario, they'd wait up to 20 minutes to rest, because we can't refund spell slots without a full rest (which would be highly exploitable). Worst-case scenario, they'd die because they failed to cast a spell at a critical moment. No. I am not coding that. Out of the question, end of story.

#4 I'm a little less hostile towards. Your proposed implementation is completely wrong, because the tech doesn't exist for it... but the gameplay of taking an extra turn and an extra Concentration check to raise your caster level is doable, in largely the same way as we do blood magic, multi-round spells, etc. Just can't tie it to Arcane Conversion like you think we can... oh, and by the way, Arcane Conversion is a thing that already exists and works on the server. For most mages, it's basically just a way to burn spell slots for no practical benefit, but if you have the Arcane Fire high arcana feat, then it becomes a ranged touch attack dealing 1d8 magical damage per Archmage or spell level, for a maximum of 19d8 off a level 9 spell converted by a level 10 Archmage.

Ok, so how about we forget the whole foci and real components thing (I knew it'd be a massive undertaking but I took my shot), and please go ahead and

1: Announce that people should keep their PnP info to themselves re: components until the team has updated the spell descriptions, as jumping on someone unfamiliar with that shiz without giving them the option to retcon once they know the component is unfair and the team might decide that some components that make for good rp in PnP just don't make sense in an MMORPG. (For example, again, I would suggest that Abyssal Might could require the caster to possess the heart of a dwarven child but that the heart is not consumed by the spell, otherwise dwarves would be extinct by now because of how popular that spell is as a summon buff).

2: Update all in-game spell descriptions to specify what spell components are required and whether or not those components are used up. Alternately, perhaps most spell components are NEVER consumed by spells except for certain very powerful spells, like Resurrection, etc. Perhaps there could be powerful arcane spells that would start requiring components that are consumed upon casting like the diamonds are for raising? The consumed on casting components could be real things we have to actually obtain and the not-consumed components would be stuff we rp as having on our person without actually having them.

3: Implement the spell CL boost for taking an extra turn to cast, but again I suggest it be wizard-only. Not only to give wizards a little boost to address the mechanical disadvantage they have vs sorcs, but also the IC idea is the wizard is concentrating on the hermetic formulae they use to cast the spell, reciting it their mind before actually casting, whereas sorc don't use formulae. Their magic is instinctive.

Also, I'm disappointed that you made no mention of Eschew Materials in your proposal. I play basically all of my sorcerers as though they had that feat (... admittedly as a bonus feat on one of their items).

As I said in the OP, I haven't played PnP since 1996. There's a lot of PnP stuff I don't remember, and a lot I probably never knew to begin with.

[DaloLorn]

Eeeeh, I'm not convinced. Wizards have a lot going for them: Bonus feats, more skills, flexible spell lists, and vastly superior multiclassing prospects between their primary stat and their faster spell progression. Sorcerers aren't weak, but at best, I'd peg them as equally powerful. Not superior.

[Night shader]

This thread begins to share a lot of similarities with the Evil Rp thread, it does seem indeed that things are biased to one side.

[DaloLorn]

This thread begins to share a lot of similarities with the Evil Rp thread, it does seem indeed that things are biased to one side.

It's hard to respond to that if you don't elaborate.

[DaloLorn]

1. From my own experience and OP experience, it does seem rather unrewarding to even attempt to do any evil Rp even if unintentional. OP was not even trying to do it but quickly got forced it upon themselves by fellow roleplayers.

As the leader of one of the server's several evil guilds... I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, you can't afford to be blatantly evil in the wrong crowds, but there's room for evil, especially in the North and Underdark.

3. Witchunts for people who cast evil spells (or spells that look evil but aren't)

That part shouldn't have happened, I agree. There's not a lot for it, unfortunately; every community has good and bad players.

4. Knowledge gatekeeping for RP and research, I agree with OP that I shouldn't have my character/rp ruined because I missed a detail

I mean... spells with the Evil descriptor are pretty evil. The specifics of why it's evil don't matter; if you're using them, you should get an alignment bump (though for the sake of exploit prevention, this isn't done automatically). If you see someone using them, chances are they're evil or at least in danger of becoming evil.

Everyone's focusing so much on the dwarf heart, but even putting that aside: You're drawing power from the Abyss. CE Central, natural habitat of a literally uncountable horde of demons. What do you expect people to think if they recognize the spell?

[Green Monster]

Eeeeh, I'm not convinced. Wizards have a lot going for them: Bonus feats, more skills, flexible spell lists, and vastly superior multiclassing prospects between their primary stat and their faster spell progression. Sorcerers aren't weak, but at best, I'd peg them as equally powerful. Not superior.

If that were true sorcs wouldn't make up the vast majority of the arcane spellcasters on the server, but they do. And the bonus feats and multiclassing prospects cancel each other out. You can't get the bonus feats and multiclass at the same time.

[Green Monster]

Btw, for the record, the character of mine who was ACCUSED of using Abyssal Might was my Invisible Blade and she was not using Abyssal Might. She had red Dragonskin potion cl 12 for the 20/- fire resistance and Spiderskin potion cl 12 for the +5 hide because she'd just got back from Reaching Wood. The accusation was based on the VFX and was made by a character who was hanging out in Soubar with Zerros and Szarilana ([sp?} the horned tiefling lady often hanging out with Zerros, the one who whispers) so I really doubt this character was LG.

My IB uses Animalistic Power potions because AP is lvl 2 so I can have my wizard craft pots cl 15 that last 2.5 hours and are still cheap, whereas Abyssal Might is a lvl 4 so it can only be either a wand where I don't control the CL or a poisonous elixir that costs a fortune. Also, because my IB has 14 each in Str and Con and already has a +3 dex item, the only advantage Abyssal has over Animalist is a few pounds of carry weight.

My TN wizard HAS used Abyssal Might on her summons, but all I ever knew from the spell description is that the spell contacts the Abyss. So what? Making deals with devils, fiends, and angels alike is pretty cannon for wizards. You can harp on about the "evil descriptor" all you want but ANYTHING that contacts the abyss is going to be evil and isn't the same as killing a dwarven child. If the spell description had stated that the spell required a dwarf child heart then my wizard would never have been casting it on her summons. Fortunately, my wizard has never been called out for it so I can easily retcon that now.

Since then I OOC had my wiz make me an Abyssal Might elixir so I could compare VFX. Here is the result:

Hidden: show

[whatsittoya]

I mean if you're doing overtly evil stuff and other characters take note of it and react negatively, your RP isn't being ruined, it's being rewarded.

[DaloLorn]

Eeeeh, I'm not convinced. Wizards have a lot going for them: Bonus feats, more skills, flexible spell lists, and vastly superior multiclassing prospects between their primary stat and their faster spell progression. Sorcerers aren't weak, but at best, I'd peg them as equally powerful. Not superior.

If that were true sorcs wouldn't make up the vast majority of the arcane spellcasters on the server, but they do.

Do they?

Why don't we compare notes?

• Edelgarde: Wizard Mystic Theurge.
• Sirion: Wizard something.
• DarkestGott: Archmage and Deathsinger on two different PCs, both wizards.
• The three or so Red Wizards I've seen in the guild's current iteration (... though it's been a while already...): Wizard. Obviously, by definition.
• Paragon_nemesis: A mixture of both. (Vadrick is a sorcerous gish, but I distinctly remember him mentioning he had a wizard of some kind too.)
• Me: A mixture of both. (My active roster features three multiclassed wizards and a sorceress, though my full roster has basically anything.)
• Deathgrowl: A mixture of both. (Nma'Tarongue is a wizard/PM, while Merenia is a dragon disciple.)
• Celestia: I have no clue, honestly...
• Lyrith: Wizard something.
• Verana: Sorcerer something.
• Metaquad: Primarily sorcerers, shamans, literally any spontaneous caster now that he seems to have stopped playing a million consecutive warlocks.
• Lylan'Synor: Wizard Bladesinger.
• Mathilde: Feytouched Sorceress.
• Sheren: Wizard something gishy.
• Enakid (... who I haven't seen in a bit now...): Wizard something.
• Tarina: Wizard something.

For those keeping score: That's 8-11 unique accounts favoring wizards over sorcerers, 3 accounts favoring sorcerers over wizards, and 3 accounts without a distinct preference. I will concede, though, that I'm oblivious to the preferences of players I have never encountered... but while we used to pull stats from the server vault for this sort of thing, I have no idea how to do it myself and none of the usual people are around to do it right now.

And the bonus feats and multiclassing prospects cancel each other out. You can't get the bonus feats and multiclass at the same time.

Yes and no. You will basically always get at least one bonus feat, no matter what PRC you're chasing... and the point is that you have a lot more options to choose from. You have almost every build a sorcerer can take (only blooded PRCs, Blackguard, Paladin, and EDM are available uniquely to sorcerous arcanists), and you get improved versions of - if not outright exclusive access to - Bladesinger/Deathsinger, Duelist, Swashbuckler, Invisible Blade... You could even argue that Mystic Theurge favors prepared casters, though the accuracy of such an assertion will depend somewhat on what you're trying to squeeze out of your build.

Btw, for the record, the character of mine who was ACCUSED of using Abyssal Might was my Invisible Blade and she was not using Abyssal Might. She had red Dragonskin potion cl 12 for the 20/- fire resistance and Spiderskin potion cl 12 for the +5 hide because she'd just got back from Reaching Wood. The accusation was based on the VFX and was made by a character who was hanging out in Soubar with Zerros and Szarilana ([sp?} the horned tiefling lady often hanging out with Zerros, the one who whispers) so I really doubt this character was LG.

Again, I agree that shouldn't have happened. But what can I do about it?

My IB uses Animalistic Power potions because AP is lvl 2 so I can have my wizard craft pots cl 15 that last 2.5 hours and are still cheap, whereas Abyssal Might is a lvl 4 so it can only be either a wand where I don't control the CL or a poisonous elixir that costs a fortune. My TN wizard HAS used Abyssal Might on her summons, but all I ever knew from the spell description is that the spell contacts the Abyss. So what? Making deals with devils, fiends, and angels alike is pretty cannon for wizards. You can harp on about the "evil descriptor" all you want but ANYTHING that contacts the abyss is going to be evil and isn't the same as killing a dwarven child. If the spell description had stated that the spell required a dwarf child heart then my wizard would never have been casting it on her summons. Fortunately, my wizard has never been called out for it so I can easily retcon that now.

I'm not sure whether you're overestimating the evilness of killing a dwarven child, or underestimating the evilness of channelling abyssal energies. You're literally drawing the pure, unadulterated essence of evil onto the Prime! Dealing with fiends isn't any better, either, and a Neutral mage who habitually summons devils and demons will most likely not stay Neutral for long unless they're performing a lot of Good acts to balance the scales.