Spell Components and RP

[Green Monster]

Speaking as someone who has a crafting character who knows literally every wizard spell in the game and makes scrolls, potions, elixirs, and wands, but someone who also hasn't played PnP since 1996, there is an issue regarding spell components and role-playing.

Apparently, some spells have morally reprehensible components in PnP, but the in-game spell description does not mention it. And since the components are not mentioned in the spell and we don't actually in-game go about getting the components, my neutrally-aligned wizard could be casting a spell that has the evil descriptor and think "so I'm doing business with the dark powers, so what else is new for a wizard" and someone PK her because the spell in PnP requires the gall bladder of an elven baby or something and I have no idea.

Suggestion, Part 1:
Suggest that, ASAP, there be an official announcement and rule that for now everyone should keep all PnP knowledge of spell components out of the game and out of their RP. Bringing PnP knowledge that isn't available in-game into your interaction with another player is not only unfair to those unfamiliar with PnP, but the team might decide to change some spell components from what is stated in PnP. Also suggest mentioning that updating spell descriptions in the future is in the works and when that's done THEN knowledge of components as stated in the game is, of course, fair to include in RP.

Suggestion, Part 2:
When time allows, review all the spells and decide what ones have what components (and/or foci, more on that in part 3) and update all in-game spell descriptions.

Suggestion, Part 3:
Real material components, real spell foci, and spell component/foci bags.

From what I remember from way back in the day, a spell component is a material object that is used up by the casting of the spell. Most DMs (and this game) ignore them because if we had to go around gathering/buying components it would be such a drastic money and time sink that no one could actually RP and adventure much outside of rp and adventures concerning obtaining them. Not to mention the sheer ludicrousness of having to, for example, have a fresh dead baby heart every time we cast abyssal might on a summon. The area would soon run out of babies. Instead, I propose that all spells have a spell focus and only very powerful spells have spell components.

A spell focus would be a material item that helps a wizard connect to the Weave while psychologically getting into the right state to cast that particular spell. Spell foci are not consumed in the casting of the spell, are only required for wizards (not Sorc, Clerics, or anyone else), and only required for the highest level spell (Don't worry, this will have a benefit, stick with me in Part 4). For example, a level 5 wizard would require foci for 3rd level spells but not for 2nd and 1st. Spell foci should always be something small and symbolic, like a piece of charcoal for Fireball, a small silver pendant in the shape of a lightning bolt for Scintillating Sphere, etc. Maybe the dead baby heart or whatever for Abyssal Might could be a dried baby heart foci so we don't have to wonder where all the dead babies are coming from. One per wizard is a lot more reasonable than one per casting.

Every spell should have a spell foci, but not every foci needs to be unique. For example the charcoal might be for fireball and for flame arrow, the lightning pendant for scintillating sphere and lightning bolt.

Only the most powerful spells should require components that are consumed in the casting, and those would require those components regardless of class.

There should also be spell component bags to store foci and components for little or no weight, like Ashenie's lovely herb bags.


Suggestion, Part 4:
New Wizard-Only Feat, Arcane Conversion

In the base game wizards are at a huge mechanical disadvantage due to the need to prepare the precise number and type of spells and the fewer spells compared to Sorcerers. In BGTSCC, this disadvantage is even greater because Sorcerers are given even more spells than in the base game. The mechanical disadvantage is so great that currently the only reason to be a wizard instead of a Sorcerer is for RP reasons or (like me) you have a crafting character who you want to be able to cast every spell in the game. I propose a new Wizard-only feat to redress this imbalance: Arcane Conversion.

Arcane Conversion would be activated from the "Spontaneous Conversion" button that already appears in the quick cast menu and currently only does anything for divine casters. How it works: You click that Sponteous Conversion button and select a memorized spell in your wizard spell book. IF you have the focus for that spell either in your inventory or in your spell component bag, then you take one full extra turn to cast the spell while you focus your mind on that spell focus. You make a Concentration check with the same sorts of modifiers for casting in combat and if you succeed you cast the spell as though your caster level were 2 levels higher than it is. If you fail that concentration check you cast the spell normally, but either way you took that full extra turn. If you click the button but don't have the right spell focus you just cast the spell normally and get a server message reminding you that you need the spell focus.

Note that this WOULD stack with metamagic feats like extend, empower, et cetera. The idea is to give wizards a boost in power per cast to make up for how drastically fewer their spells are and how they have to prep in advance. Not only that, but for rare or unusual focu/components there would be quest and rp opportunities for obtaining them.

[Steve]

...my neutrally-aligned wizard could be casting a spell that has the evil descriptor and think "so I'm doing business with the dark powers, so what else is new for a wizard"

While you as a player may choose to role-play YOUR neutrally aligned wizard in this way, ideologically, it by no means stops a good-aligned Character from reacting in a very negative way towards your wizards choices and/or affiliations. If said good-aligned Character witnesses a spell that has a known Evil descriptor, thus being Evil in very direct principal, this warrants an in-character, in-game reaction.

If that reaction is to start violence...well, as long as said RP follows the OOC PvP Rules, there is no reason to stop it. And no reason to complain either, imho.

[Green Monster]

But as I said in the other thread, there's different degrees of evil. If my character is casting a spell and all I know about it from the spell description is that it involves communication with devils, then that is FAR, FAR different than a spell that requires stabbing a puppy in the face. I would do the first. I would never do the latter. So when some rando comes along and starts rping at me that I have just stabbed a puppy in the face and absolutely NOTHING in-game has indicated to me, as a player, that that is what my character has done how is that fair?

No, out-of-game knowledge shouldn't come into RP, and since this game is NOT PnP, all PnP knowledge IS out of game knowledge.

[whatsittoya]

There are degrees of evil, but a spell with the evil descriptor (the awareness of which can be in-game, in-character knowledge) is a definitively evil act to cast.

[Green Monster]

There are degrees of evil, but a spell with the evil descriptor (the awareness of which can be in-game, in-character knowledge) is a definitively evil act to cast.

Not arguing with anyone there. My point is that my character WOULD communicate with devils but would NOT stab a puppy in the face and it's unfair for some rando to come up to me and insist my character has just done something they wouldn't do, based on info that is NOT in-game. This is 100% not about "there should be no repercussions for an evil act" and I don't know how to make it more clear that I should know exactly how evil the act is so that I know whether or not my character would do it and what repercussions to expect, and information from outside of the game has no place in RP in the game

I just don't know why I can never post on this forum without people missing my point. Maybe I suck at communicating, idk.

[whatsittoya]

It's probably because of the choice of comparison.

Casting a spell with the evil descriptor is already stabbing a puppy in the face. Casting a spell with the evil descriptor that also has a deplorable material component is stabbing two puppies in their faces.

To get the evil descriptor, a spell has to be pretty puppy-face-stabby levels of evil from the get-go, and as far as negative reactions from other characters go, an evil act is an evil act and quibbling about degree is generally evil apologist behavior which only makes good-aligned characters even more hopping mad.

[renshouj]

I should know exactly how evil the act is so that I know whether or not my character would do it and what repercussions to expect, and information from outside of the game has no place in RP in the game

I don't think anyone would object to the in-game spell saying what it uses as a component. So yeah, we just gotta work on the spells having the correct descriptions.

[Green Monster]

@whatsit

I should still know precisely what is involved so I know whether or not my character would do it, and also there's not just good and evil involved. My wizard is neutral and would become aggressive against someone literally stabbing a puppy in the face but not against someone animating a skeleton. So.... your whole argument seems simplistic and reductive to me.

And soneone using out of game knowledge in their RP is BS. I shouldn't have to Google every spell component for every spell. My wizard literally has all of them in her spell book so not only would that be a lot of work to play a game that I'm playing to relax and escape exactly that kind of work, but the dms might decide that having a dead dwarven child every time someone casts abyssal might would create a shortage of dwarven children. Components that make sense in a PnP setting with 1 mage in the group do not automatically make sense on a server with dozens of them.

[RoseMiriel]

it's not right to hold your character accountable for that no. I wouldn't use half the spells if I was to rp those components I imagine If I remember right invisibility requires pixie wings!? That would make Invisibility evil.

[whatsittoya]

@whatsit

I should still know precisely what is involved so I know whether or not my character would do it, and also there's not just good and evil involved. My wizard is neutral and would become aggressive against someone literally stabbing a puppy in the face but not against someone animating a skeleton. So.... your whole argument seems simplistic and reductive to me.

And soneone using out of game knowledge in their RP is BS. I shouldn't have to Google every spell component for every spell. My wizard literally has all of them in her spell book so not only would that be a lot of work to play a game that I'm playing to relax and escape exactly that kind of work, but the dms might decide that having a dead dwarven child every time someone casts abyssal might would create a shortage of dwarven children. Components that make sense in a PnP setting with 1 mage in the group do not automatically make sense on a server with dozens of them.

D&D morality is simplistic and reductive. Animating a skeleton is more evil than stabbing a puppy in the face.

[whatsittoya]

it's not right to hold your character accountable for that no. I wouldn't use half the spells if I was to rp those components I imagine If I remember right invisibility requires pixie wings!? That would make Invisibility evil.

Invisibility requires an eyelash.

[Green Monster]

. Animating a skeleton is more evil than stabbing a puppy in the face.

That's an opinion, not a fact, and also entirely beside the point. Again, the point is that someone else bringing outside knowledge into the game is BS. This is not PnP, so all PnP knowledge is out of game knowledge. And don't tell me that it is, cause PnP will have 1 dm, 4 players, and usually exactly 1 mage. There are dozens of mages on this server so if PnP components applied dwarves and gods know what else would all be extinct.

[renshouj]

. Animating a skeleton is more evil than stabbing a puppy in the face.

That's an opinion, not a fact, and also entirely beside the point. Again, the point is that someone else bringing outside knowledge into the game is BS. This is not PnP, so all PnP knowledge is out of game knowledge. And don't tell me that it is, cause PnP will have 1 dm, 4 players, and usually exactly 1 mage. There are dozens of mages on this server so if PnP components applied dwarves and gods know what else would all be extinct.

The server does follow PnP 2e lore, and a lot of server RP does require you to go research books (looking up dogmas, geography, etc etc). Now, again, no one disagrees with you that the description of the spell should be clear. And that's going to be fixed, so now that it's been made clear, we can rp accordingly in the future.

[Green Monster]

I should know exactly how evil the act is so that I know whether or not my character would do it and what repercussions to expect, and information from outside of the game has no place in RP in the game

I don't think anyone would object to the in-game spell saying what it uses as a component. So yeah, we just gotta work on the spells having the correct descriptions.

100%, please do. And please make a rule that people should keep their pnp components knowledge out of their rp and use only in game knowledge when it becomes available because you might (I hope) reevaluate some of the components in regards to the feasibility on a server with dozens of mages. For example, Dragonskin already says in game that it requires a dragon scale. Fine. You get a LOT of scales from killing one dragon. But a dwarven child's heart for every cast of Abyssal Might? Come on. Dwarves would be an endangered species by now and the guards at Krask Helzak would kill mages on sight.

[whatsittoya]

This is Forgotten Realms D&D 2E, and all that entails.

Creating undead is high up on the list of the most evil things you can do; that is not my opinion, that is a fact of this fictional setting.

It has cosmic metaphysical consequences in ways that stabbing a puppy just doesn't have.