Proposal: Additional Spells for Craft Wand

[renshouj]

The thing is, those players ARE present, people just dont need them so they dont go to them. Clerics are not that rare, theres like a druid or druid-adjacent person in basically every faction, wizards even more so.

And again, we are not talking about PvE, we are not talking about dungeons, we're talking about RP spells.

[selhan]

The thing is, those players ARE present,

This is purely an example Im not saying its an 100 % every day thing

*If I was an evil Merc typical fighter from Darkhold, lets say in the Mid to high level range and I wanted to go out venturing to even place like Reaching Wood Whom am I gonna possibly engage with for Wards or even company for the PVE content?* (Yes i know jojos point is not on the PVE) But just trying to show a common scenario from this side of the world that shows additional reasons on why some simply settle with UMD)

*If I happened upon some grand inquisitors corpse after he was ambushed by a group of Drows or even Evil hating Elves in the forest, who can they approach to find a Speak with the dead spell to find out what happened? Who willing to offer assistance with an Evil Zhent?*





The Sunite? Or go to BG a place the Zhent is banned from and seek out the corpse smelling God of Dead hugger?(Teasing) ... (I know a bit stretching but again just example scenarios thats quite the common from what i myself do see ) There are players with some hardcore rp to their characters that wont step foot in BG , Soubar, Roagingshore any City etc. So for them to seek the opposite themed is not an option "they choose". So its back to the smartphone factor (UMD)


Time Zones have become over the years a hard factor specially with a smaller population. That screen shot above is during the time Im normally at work. If compared to my evenings you slice that population down to 5-8 on average and its a Friday here. In all honesty, theres been a noob Druid I've myself been having some rp with, regardless of my character pointing how his views of things they seem quite persistent in considering Sel the "Kind Man". Will Sel take advantage of what class ability they got and spells? You damn skippy he would. But before this player came around ..."non existent so I carry a bag of smartphones*. But thats my character. Other players may do things differently.

I had my own Wand Crafter , we kilt that charging them xp
I use to take advantage of rp to engage with people that craft, Some rp was kilt because they cant make certain wands anymore, they prefer selling the wand with the spell needed over being found venturing with certain characters.
The Rp spells, Not a lot even knows about those things but I myself when find such RP spells I bank them because weighing the thought of *Is there a person with this spell that I can easily reach? Answer is no.* Might not be the same for others.
And you got the type of people are are *Hold on to these just for in "In case" moments or pride themselves for "always being prepared "

Im not against other peoples views on the matter, Im just pointing how some others see it or feel it. If the guy wants rely on a Device to speak with Animals I myself feel *IF the man has studied on how to use such device its all good* But dont expect the quality of the spell to be that of a real Druid nor expect that Device will always work properly.*

Maybe he intended to speak with the Dire Wolf but instead blurted out "oink Oink"

[Afendaria]

I'm more or less with these opinions about some scrolls / potions / wands making the rp need of some classes with their spells redundant. I think UMD for buffing one's self to take on a dungeon (Death ward, mind blank, freedom of movement, shield, etc) is fine. But when a cleric who can speak with dead can all of a sudden also speak with plants and animals, why do we need the druid for that part of rp anymore? A fighter can suddenly consecrate the earth or talk to rocks. Again, Goodbye to Cleric and Druid in that moment. If the scrolls/pots/wands/items for magic that is RP heavy were out and required the proper classes to use them I think the experience would be better and those roles for the classes would become more important.

[blazerules]

I second the notion that RP relevant spells shouldn't be available to anyone but casters themselves.

Buffs etc that's perfectly fine. We don't have the server pop to justify locking those away behind casters. But anything RP related should really be a caster only thing. Otherwise it really does invalidate the value of people who take those classes and make them feel like they are about as useful as a wand if not arguably less.

[Ithilan]

I support making any spell that mechanically can be wanded, wandable.

Because else it becomes this super subjective evaluation of what spell fits in what context for X or Y use, whilst a creative player can just as easily use the others in RP, despite being equally unknowledgeable about it as the specific RP spells you want to restrict.

I understand mechanical limitations and balance interests, I think RP should be encouraged and players trusted to do it with reason. Not restricted and given guardrails, where some things are kept restricted and others are not.

This server is heavily leaning on UMD and has been for years, that is not changing any time soon, in fact we are compiling mandatory mechanical choices at this point, it used to just be tumble, now you need both acrobatics and athleticism, a light armor, UMD, 30 spellcraft, your spotting skills and on it goes. I do not intend to derail the topic, but I do not see the difference in RP between casting a moonbolt from a wand or speak with animals, its about responsible IC use that is immersive and fits a character at the end of the day.

[blazerules]

I feel like the difference is somewhat clear?

Speak with Animals is a useless spell without DMs present. There are some spells that are purely useful in the context of having a DM available.

Same for speak with dead. I suppose we could run a local LLM model on the server to power speak with dead/animals without the need of DMs. We have the technology. But they are purely RP spells.

[selhan]

Overall I really wouldnt want any class to be felt useless in regards to their specialties. Sometimes when I make a dungeon, I very much rather make a door lock with a DC only a Rogue could open, but I keep in mind not everyones gonna be able to have a master thief with them. So they gonna need a thieves tool or break a door down.

It's just the reality is theres just not enough "activity" (meaning high population availability). Not saying we a dead server, just this old game is not pumping the population like it use too when it was flourishing with 60-80 online all the time. At this very moment its reaching my 9pm and theres a total of 7 people online, 2 UDers, 1 maybe a cleric/FS , 3 melees other then me. If I was in need for certain rp spell from a character Druid , Wizard or Evil priest, It's gonna be another few hours well past my midnight before that is remotely possible, and that is even "IF" A DM was online running anything at this dead time zone, if one was, they gonna have to produce another NPC with such abilities to be even be made available.

Limitations over restrictions to me is the concept that makes things still within the realm of possibility. Theres no fun in impossibility. A person wants a certain pair of boots from a shop but class/ alignment restrictions prevents them , they got two other choices, Invest in more UMD or try to find a version from a loot drop that doesnt come with class/ alignment restrictions, thus theres still a means to strive what one wishes to obtain just more difficult in doing so.

[Steve]

I understand mechanical limitations and balance interests, I think RP should be encouraged and players trusted to do it with reason. Not restricted and given guardrails, where some things are kept restricted and others are not.

There is a list of things, not just wand-a-ble spells, that fall into "Restrictions." Where does it begin to un-restrict??

Also, if the issue is Server Population, then probably best to start with removing half the available Areas, and concentrate Players. Of course, as has also been stated, a large portion of BGTSCC players don't RP and just want to solo the areas, beat all the Bosses, grab lootz, and log. No RP involved.

If the Environment is off from the desired goal of an RP server where players actually interact, can interact because PCs are not hiding behind "restricted" areas and guild halls, that is the first point to redesign.

[blazerules]

, and that is even "IF" A DM was online running anything at this dead time zone, if one was, they gonna have to produce another NPC with such abilities to be even be made available.

Yeah but... don't you need a DM anyways to even use speak with dead/animals/plants? That spell is basically entirely worthless without a DM?

[renshouj]

Yeah but... don't you need a DM anyways to even use speak with dead/animals/plants? That spell is basically entirely worthless without a DM?

Yup. Same for Omen of Peril, same for Commune/Commune with Nature, same for all of these different types of "RP Spell".

[Ashenie]

Hello everyone,

These are my observations on the matter, for whatever worth they may have. I've spent time thinking about all that and thought I would share. I'm also not the most knowledgeable person around on what can be done, but I care deeply about preserving our setting and the integrity of divine magic. I'll explain what I mean below.

Divine magic is not the property of the divine spellcasters. You pray with an intended use of a spell, that may or may not be answered. A deity can grant you the spell for your intended purpose, refuse it, grant another spell, grant the spell but not for that purpose, etc. That means, when a divine spellcaster crafts a wand, potion, or scroll, he or she has the backing of the deity. If the divine spellcaster betrayed the intention for which he was granted the spell (which is possible because once the spell is granted, you retain it), then it becomes a more serious offense. You're always supposed to be the vessel of your deity, and you're meant to accomplish their wish with the spell they granted you- or you're falling. In any case, this already means that mass production and selling is supposed to be done with the backing of a deity, or the deity would stop granting spells after the first item sold.

That is important when considering those magical items. When you craft them, you can only distribute or use them, as divine spellcaster, for the purposes that serve the cause of your deity. That means, Paladins can't craft magical items with the intention that they could be used by non paladins or non believers for causes against the code or the dogma, or you're becoming responsible for distributing this power blindly. Druids cannot craft magical items with the intention of selling them for their own profit at the expense of the defense of nature, or you're flirting with violations of your oaths. There is no possibility that a random assassin carries 17 druidic wands that he or she bought in the Wide, because that would not be in line with the purpose of druidic magic to be mass sold without any consideration for the potential use of those spells, and between which hands they fall. The Gods would certainly not appreciate that their magic is used by someone who is actively harming their cause - it becomes absurd. Especially if the druid-crafter in question shouldn't have done that in the first place.

This doesn't mean that wands and other magical items cannot be crafted, but it always implies a few points :
- The deity gave tacit or active permission for the spell they granted to be used in the crafting of a magical item
- The deity allowed it to be sold or given, either to specific people (For example, given to faithful only, or sold for a fair or very unfair price to non faithful to support the church, or not sold to enemies of the faith, etc...), or into the market, which implies a possibility that the item ends in the wrong - or unexpected - hands. If someone sells a magical item giving access to divine magic without the consent of the church, God, and all that, this is a problem. And the church, and the deity, would absolutely care about the fact that they didn't consent to all of this.

I do not see a good way to enforce this on the server. But I see that carrying so many divine wands and scrolls and potions, etc, is just not believable in terms of respecting the universe setting and the laws of divine magic, especially druidic and paladins spells. In addition to this consideration, druids and paladins have a relatively restricted relationship with trade in general. Trade being mostly the result of society for druids and therefore considered with caution in how it exploits natural resources, and trade being subject to restrictions for paladins if we observe the code. I don't say that trade doesn't exist for these classes, but it's likely not a mass and blind production whose sole purpose is to gather wealth for either of them. And for some clerics as well - but not all clerics.

It's also why in lore Thayan magical goods are so attractive in lore. They are readily available and (relatively) cheap.

Now, with all the wands that are already in place, I would rather want to think about a consistent, believable, and immersive ruling instead of "This has a roleplay effect, so it's not eligible. This is uselful for our designed environment content, so we allow it." From an in character perspective, it's difficult to make sense of this as it is. I indeed don't see a big difference between crafting a wand of death ward and a wand of speak with animal, in terms of use of divine power. What is proposed here is an out of character consideration about the practical use of the spell - which I also understand -, but not something that is explained in character so far. I don't have a good alternative to propose immediately, but I think it can be important to consider the question while respecting the lore around divine magic, and I would rather have a rule that makes sense - if possible of course. I also understand technical and mechanical restrictions and their need.

As for people who need a divine spellcaster but don't have any available during events - maybe because none of this or that Faith exist on the server currently- , they may ask the help of non player characters as it's part of the setting. Temples provide services, and appropriate payment for those services following each religion. People don't absolutely need so many wands to solve everything themselves, diplomacy is also a viable way to solve plots. For their services, temples may ask for quests, or for services in turn, which can provide opportunity for great stories. It's also possible that a specific investigation tool is not available to a group. For example, a group that is actively harming nature may not have access to commune with nature even if during a plot it would have eased their task.

If we take the example of the Zhentarim, asking some other faiths to provide services may be interpreted very badly by the churches who have a power seat in the organization. We live in an immersive setting, full of tensions and struggles. So going to ask help of a Tormtar or a Lanthanderite cleric because one is available in game instead of Iyachtu Xvim or Cyric would be very surprising, and may lead to in character tensions. Especially as servants of Torm and Lathander may be commanded to refuse.

All of those things are so easily accessible because our economy is limitless, because gold and experience are infinite resources, because there are no components needed, there is no crafting time, we can rest every 20 minutes for mass production, and because as divine spellcasters we're not controled on what spells we prepare from the list and for what purpose. We're entrusted with creativity and respect of the lore and of our Gods tacit approval and I think that's great. But in the setting, it remains unbelievable that, for example, Ashenie is using many druidic wands mass-sold in the Wide to further the goals of Ilmater, even when the endeavor is respectful of nature. The purpose of druidic magic is not to help Ilmater's cause all the time and cannot be, but also Ilmater is not granting druidic spells. If he wanted his priests to use druidic magic to further his goals, he would grant those spells.

As player, I personnally don't mind if people find other means than asking help from clerics, even if it's a missed opportunity for roleplay and I find that sad. I also don't care what spells are available or not in general, for the purpose of crafting items. What I care about is that it remains immersive and believable, so I don't have to play around it and find myself in situations where I don't know how a druidic wand could have been given to someone who is actively using this power to destroy nature. It's also about our Gods reliability. Silvanus allowing the mass production of druidic magic to be sold to everyone, including his enemies, and then punishing a druid for using their magic to help an enemy of the Faith because druidic magic should rather be employed to protect nature is not making a lot of sense, especially as gold isn't druids best friend. I would rather have something as consistent as possible.

As a side note, in my experience, you're never absolutely in need of specific spells to solve a situation. There are countless ways to solve a situation, with different spells, or approaches. I'll take a moment here to thank players and dungeon masters who allow creativity and unexpected suggestions during the exploration their personal stories or events, instead of favoring railroaded stories. Sometimes your role is also not to solve the situation, but prepare for the next, keep other people safe, or take advantage of the situation. You may believe speak with the dead was needed for this murder investigation, but hindsight would also give you the piece of information you sought, or perhaps an investigation of the crime scene would have too, or the interrogation of a witness. But maybe your role was not to find more elements about what happened, it was maybe to protect nature because while you're investigating there, nature is in danger elsewhere - it's a random example. All of these approaches are valid, in my perspective. I never found myself in a position where I felt I absolutely needed a spell I didn't have access to. Sometimes, even, Ilmater didn't grant my character access to spells I thought would have helped, and I had to play around it to understand why, and find a suitable solution for my character.

Finally, maybe is it believable that druids offer sporadic access to druidic magic to priests and rangers of their faith, sometimes. But if you find yourself in constant need of these powers because you believe it's the best way to serve your deity, maybe it's a sign that you consider that druidic magic is more appropriate than cleric or ranger magic to serve your deity with the tasks you have, and it's a bit strange. It's like saying "My god is not giving me the appropriate tools to serve him". Sometimes it's understandable, but if it's always and absolutely always, it's a good topic of reflection for roleplay implication of that need. Druidic magic is restricted by additional duties that clerics don't have. If you don't need to play these restrictions anymore because of the mass availability of druidic magic, then playing druid doesn't feel great as other people can accomplish the same thing without similar commitment. Same with paladins using cleric spells, or ranger using those spells, etc. Each class plays a different role within a church.

I don't think it's a priority to work on this, and I also don't think it should be done in haste. We have a system and it works. But as a matter of expressing preferences and perhaps giving consideration for the future, here is what I would be in favor of :
- Magical items that are crafted from divine magic may bear a line that can't be modified in description about the source of the power. "This scroll bear the distinctive pattern of a Cure Light Wound spell of Ilmater". The origin of a divine power can be identified in lore. It would give more depth to consumables.
- Dungeon Masters could get an idea of which character crafted the item if it's player created. Not sure how this is possible, but it would allow them to react if needed. Maybe players shouldn't be able to see that.
- Potions and elixirs may use the rules about dangerous mixing found in the Dungeon Master Guide of second edition. By adding an element of danger to consumables, you may favor casters.
- Scrolls may use the spell failure and mishaps chances found in the Dungeon Master Guide of second edition. It may indeed make them less reliable, while remaining lore-friendly. It would also help favoring casters.
- Change Use Magic Device to something closer to the rules, with multiple rolls needed to use magical items, as appropriate. Rolling 1 means it can't be used again for 24 hours as indicated in books.
- Forbid the crafting of divine spells that imply a direct intervention or an active answer from a God. Such spells may include omen, commune, miracle... While I don't know of a rule that would forbid them, the narrative of asking for the intervention of a God while not being a divine spellcaster of this Faith feels strange, and not respecting the dogma or being an enemy of the Faith makes it even more difficult to believe. I don't see why a God would permit those spells to be crafted, but even then, I don't see why a God would answer to a non-believer by default, they are never forced to do it. Exceptions are always possible but as a general rule, I would simply not allow it by default, and give a case-by-case access to it if a Dungeon Master judges it's appropriate. Since Dungeon Masters are already needed when these spells are used, it wouldn't have a huge impact. The explanation could be that the Gods don't grant the spells when the intention is to craft a magical item or making their intervention available to anyone, by default. And then for specific situations, Dungeon Masters could decide to allow it.
- Limit the number of items that can be crafted per day or week (to avoid giving a penalty to crafters who can't log in every day - we all have a life) and/or add a crafting time. I don't know if it's possible or not.


Those are just my observations and preferences. I'm not saying they are the best and anyone can feel free to disagree, it's all good.

Thanks for reading and sorry if it was a bit long, I had much to say in the end!

Cheers,

Ashenie