Were did our UnderDark Dms go?

[GholaMan]

I have been playing in the UD in BG since i joined the server. I enjoy playing in the UD setting because i like challenging enviroments. But the problem i think is not with the challenge but with the rewards you get along with the challenges it really shouldn't be more difficult to level in the UD than on the surface most of the races already have an ECL adjustment. It makes no sense to me why on top of having an ECL adjustment and diffucult challenges you also get horrible xp and loot. So i'll make a list for my suggestions

1. Increase XP and loot in every area of the UD, many of the areas simply are not worth the risk invovled to even go there. Like mist lake or driders all the high level areas are dangerous with little to no reward invovled. Most of the areas have saving throws invovled mainly will save or fort save. But even epic characters will fail a save on a 1 its silly to get horrible XP against something that can potentially kill you for rolling a 1. Getting 20xp a kill then loosing 2200 is horrible. That means i would have to kill another 110 mobs to get that XP back. Does that make sense to you? I hope not.

2.Netherese ruins should not be the only way to get to the surface. Sshamath is supposed to be a trade city, so your telling me the only way to get to the surface from a city concerened with trade is to go through the Netherese ruins? I mean shouldn't there be an actual trade route of some kind to a trade city? Even in epic level its extremely difficult to get through.

3.More quests, this would be nice and quests enhance the setting, i like the quest where the gaurds ask you to go and kill the escaped slaves.

4.More conflict, this has been brought up before and pretty much ignored. But a drow city is a CE society and everyone seems to be getting along pretty well which is odd. And if there is supposedly conflict we dont 'see' well thats like a tree falling in a forest with noone around to hear it.

5. More dm events. I have an epic level character in the UD and i have been in one event. Part of this is because of where i live. But really one event after 21 levels of playtime?

6. Players need to read up on the UD setting before making a UD character. The last time i played on BG i had a preistess of lolth ask my half-drow ranger if she was feeling okay with a big friendly smile....I wanted to punch myself in the face hard to end my misery. I know i try and help newbies with RP as much as possible and so should everyone else.

Thats all i can think of at the moment.

[Rainbow Prism]

I actually got used to 1st and 6th. Best way to deal with them is to show them UD welcome. I cannot do this regrettably with my CG girl.

2nd is impossible. You should know it if you read official info on Sshamath. It IS trading city, but for UD mostly. Cool wizard cities use portals for that. Sshamath too, but there is no way average player will get to use one.

4 and 5 depend on GMT, I guess. If you want NPC conflict, you have it. Just because you actually do not see NPC around you, it does not mean city is inhabitated only with few guys who give quests and some inanimate zombies.

[Eldebryn]

Cool wizard cities use portals for that. Sshamath too, but there is no way average player will get to use one.

If only we could implement teleportation spells my wizard would get soooo rich down there...

[Molag__Bal]

Give the ideas. Ask. Something. Normally.

My idea was more bosses. I don't pretend to know what bosses would best suit every area. I assume that the dev team can figure that out, if they decide my idea has merit.

[Karond]

4 and 5 depend on GMT, I guess. If you want NPC conflict, you have it. Just because you actually do not see NPC around you, it does not mean city is inhabitated only with few guys who give quests and some inanimate zombies.

Exactly, how? Please elaborate, I've "whined" about this for quite some time and realised nothing will ever happen. Do explain with some meaning behind it as well. Having a random DM have a circle wizard appear and throw a fireball at you is not good longlasting conflict, roleplaying style. Everyone knowing that to do behaviour X will land you a wizard throwing a fireball at you sooner or later, is.

[GholaMan]

@ranbow prism. The things that i mentioned are things that more than one person has complained about it isnt just me that feels that way. These are things that i know other players have complained to the DM's about and were either dismissed like your doing to most of the suggestions. Denied or outright ignored. This in my opinion is a huge reason why hardly anyone ever plays the UD anymore. People bring up things that are messed up with either the setting or the mechanics of the UD and what happens. Nothing.

And this is for everyone partaking in the discussion lets not shoot down each others idea's it is clear that the DM's are reading this they can take whatever ideas we throw out there and pick out the best.

[TheVoid]

I think the post I placed and the follow-up is pretty much enough about the problems with the design of the UD.

Because that area of the PW was mostly, very poorly designed by the original developers. We also have to admit the limitations here. We aren't professional game developers that can make hugely meaningful quest lines catered to your character's affiliations in all categories of character creation.

there are some glaring problems with how the UD is made and it would take a good amount of time and ALOT of effort to really revamp that area. the only question is.. is it as valuable an asset to keep throwing more resources at?

Quite a few people do not believe the UD should be playable at all and should be converted into a epic dungeon and though I disagree with some of that prognosis I can't ignore the logic of it. There is not one quick fix to this, even if we did fix all the issues how many players out of 70 max would even want to play a UD character? maybe 10, 15, 20? I really don't see or would like to see the player base split in half since both surface and UD would look sparse for players. Nor would I want to play in a server that could become UD vs Surface... Would you?

[GholaMan]

To be honest i understand what your saying void and the logic behind it. Hypothetically if the UD was done away with than what about the UD characters? Would there be some secret refugee camp somehwere on the surface? Would the DMs request that UD players delete their characters? Would people be allowed to make UD races afterward?

[Karond]

Nor would I want to play in a server that could become UD vs Surface... Would you?

I would.

Not in the sense you probably meant, with lots and lots of PvP, raids and senseless violence. But some kind of interaction at least. One major fault with how you portray the UD through your post, which is true, is that you view the UD as isolated. Of course resources are better spent elsewhere then. Of course you'll only see 5-20 people there, no matter how good it was. It is a dead end.

But rather than striving to support 2 separate worlds, how about we just focus on 1 world? And by this, I do not mean just the surface, as have become ordinary practice among the staff and players in turn. I mean 1 global world. Both the UD and the Surface combined, the entire server. But that would need interaction between the two. Trade, for example. Establishing a "colony" for trade, easily accessible by both Underdarkers and Surfacers (have a few guards guard the entrance to the real Underdark from here. Make a script trigger that if you're not from the Underdark, you can't enter that area transition going back to the Underdark etc.).

That would require the staff and players to potentially "break" some kind of lore. Lore, I hasten to add, that should not rule us. The future should not be set in stone, but how the staff and players model it with roleplaying. Lore is only a starting point, else it becomes a dead end.

[Eldebryn]

The only lore-appropriate location for drow in this timeline would be Cormanthor, which sadly is too far away from baldur's gate.

Also people would feel bad about losing Sshamath, no matter what the transition would be, everyone would have to abandon their stories, character development they have done so far and any prestige/political power that has been earned. That makes it a not so good option unless the vast majority of the server supports it.
Which means that slowly improving the current UD is the only valid option, if an option at all.

[Gruk]

Nor would I want to play in a server that could become UD vs Surface... Would you?

i would to ,
such a change could be implimented by creating zonage : 3-4 maps around durlag and 3-4 maps around the Ud mosoleum , make both zone progresivly ''epic '' as we get closer to the passage so UD VS surface would be contained to level 20s and plus. To justify such zoning in RP , consider the road and towns of surface patrolled and defended by the fist while varallas and the surounding are by the Charnag. making an all out attack from either side imposible. Unless DM event or the likes.

Also, in such a setting, it would be great if each sides had 1 quest on the other side of the passage that requires you cross it and go into the defined zonage, the kind you dont do alone, even epics , so that those parties could meet and try to stop one another from acheiving their respective quest . It would be nice if those would be opposed in objectives and RP as well.

The surface would still keep it's advantage as in , since Drows going out of durlag zonage wouldn't be welcomed in the Fist's jurisdiction while the surfacer that would leave the UD zonage would actually fall under the Charnag's jurisdiction as any of the many that come to trade to Shamath he or she would be protected.

It would get rid of many ''grey areas'' while providing meaning to any interaction between both worlds and a reason for the passage to exist.

[Eldebryn]

@Gruk

Not really my cup of tea... Makes it look too much like the typical A vs B faction PvP theme you see in MMOs. That is not entirely bad on it's own, but it's also not something I'd like to see in this kind of PW to be honest.

[Laeron]

A question came to me after long time of brooding about all these replies. Now I think I came to conclusion of why players do not like Sshamath.

Sshamath by itself, in my opinion, is very ideal thing for server because all the ideas that lv means nothing for RP is crushed by typical 'PvP trigger-happy' 'pseudodrow way' that is very popular now. 'We are drow, thereby we must kill all those who do not agree with us' psychology dominates minds of players who do not know how to RP drow by showing evilness through PvP.
Sshamath with it's setting crushes opportunity of drow attacking you in open. Law forbids fights and both combatants are arrested, drow or not, so you can expect help from staff and DMs if someone will attack you in the city. There is no favoritism of typical drow faith and ways. I love Sshamath for that. But now I wonder about one thing.

Designers put a lot of efforts in creating this paradise. Now it is barely populated by players when the Dalelands' UD is very popular. Most players of old betrayed the setting and ran away to Dalelands. I have theory of why this is happening.

Players are unfamiliar with things they see for first time. All ideas of 'lolthite city' character do not work as intended here. Players want to play drow as they see in books and novels. They cannot adapt to new setting where their fan beliefs are nothing.

If that is true, I despise such thinking. Perhaps the UD could live if plan to make a canon neighbor city of Ched Nasad would become real. Though I do not know now.

[Eldebryn]

A question came to me after long time of brooding about all these replies. Now I think I came to conclusion of why players do not like Sshamath.

Sshamath by itself, in my opinion, is very ideal thing for server because all the ideas that lv means nothing for RP is crushed by typical 'PvP trigger-happy' 'pseudodrow way' that is very popular now. 'We are drow, thereby we must kill all those who do not agree with us' psychology dominates minds of players who do not know how to RP drow by showing evilness through PvP.
Sshamath with it's setting crushes opportunity of drow attacking you in open. Law forbids fights and both combatants are arrested, drow or not, so you can expect help from staff and DMs if someone will attack you in the city. There is no favoritism of typical drow faith and ways. I love Sshamath for that. But now I wonder about one thing.

Designers put a lot of efforts in creating this paradise. Now it is barely populated by players when the Dalelands' UD is very popular. Most players of old betrayed the setting and ran away to Dalelands. I have theory of why this is happening.

Players are unfamiliar with things they see for first time. All ideas of 'lolthite city' character do not work as intended here. Players want to play drow as they see in books and novels. They cannot adapt to new setting where their fan beliefs are nothing.

If that is true, I despise such thinking. Perhaps the UD could live if plan to make a canon neighbor city of Ched Nasad would become real. Though I do not know now.

In regards to your arguement, people can play all the lolthites and stereotypical drow from Ched Nasad and Menzoberazzan they like. I suspect that the reason they don't like Sshamath is because of it's anomaly, males and especially wizards have control of the city and that apparently is enough of a demotivator for some people who not only want to play a concept they like, but they also expect their concept to be respected and powerful in the setting. If that is the case I feel no sympathy for those players, you should play what you like and that's it. Drow PvP griefing and complaints is rare and usually occurs when parties of evil drow raid the surface, which is really hard to achieve.

To sum up, I think that is not the major demotivator for playing in the UD. I remember 1 and especially 2 years ago when the place was much more crowded, people RPing in the bazaar and gloura's often. At some point this stopped and the UD constantly went on degenerating to what is is today. If you ask me it the reason is that it was neglected by DMs and/or developers at a point in time where it had enough population to deserve attention. That led to decreased population which now provides a solid and rational justification for the staff put more of their efforts on the surface or global issues and almost never UD-specific matters. Essentially we got stuck in an endless loop of (no attention from staff)<=>(no players) and it's gonna be hard if not impossible to get unstuck. My hopeful part thought wants to believe that some effort *may* have started forming...

[Leo]

Eldebryn, might as well have not posted anything. Practically the repeat of the previous post.

ITT: Wasn't Mar3 working on Ched Nasad before he left?