Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

gedweyignasia wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:51 am

MrSmith wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:48 am This server, like any community, will get the behaviors it rewards. Reward grinding and you will get more grinding. Reward RP and you will get more RP.

It's not simple to come up with a fair, reliable, stable system that rewards RP instead of grinding.

Valefort wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:58 am ...getting epic gear should be rather slow. It should take at the very least a good year to outfit your character with the best available items, then ideally more years to find perfect items through a random loot generator.

Valefort wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:58 am If you think that's a needlessly long bear in mind that items are the only mechanical growth your character can get once it reaches level 30, which is already extremely fast.

Valefort wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:58 am Also bear in mind that perfect item sets are absolutely not needed for PvE.

Valefort wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:58 am If you think they are in fact needed we're back to the original post of this topic indicating that the server is overly difficult.

Valefort wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:58 am First NWN2 calculates the value of items, it's tweakable through 2da settings, SR gold value can be adjusted and so on.

At shop level you can modify the following things :

Amount of gold the shop initially has
Black market items buying %
Market items selling %
Market items buying %
Identification price
Buy cap

At shopkeeper level you can modify the appraise score. When you open a shop there's an appraise roll vs the shopkeeper's appraise, +d10 for each, rerolled if your appraise score changed since last shop opening. The difference between the rolls is calculated and corresponds to a markup up to +30% or -30% of the price (if your appraise +d10 beats the merchant's appraise +d10 by 30 or more).

As you can see Appraise skill is already extremely valuable.

As for the choices they're clear, especially with muling tolerated, getting epic gear should be rather slow. It should take at the very least a good year to outfit your character with the best available items, then ideally more years to find perfect items through random loot generator.

If you think that's needlessly long bear in mind that items are the only mechanical growth your character can get once it reaches level 30, which is already extremely fast. Also bear in mind that perfect item sets are absolutely not needed for PvE. If you think they are in fact needed we're back to the original post of this topic indicating that the server is overly difficult.

YYA wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:09 am

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:31 pm I would put most of the blame on the bgtscc encounter design meta. Most opponents are punching bags with inflated HP and saves.

Adding more casters with CC spells, sneaks with HiPS, opponents who have knock down, haste and/or dimension door to counter kiting, warrior types with higher AB and/or AC, will make the grind more difficult and resource intensive.

It will also make areas more difficult in some respects, but if variety is balanced by lowering the inflated HP and saving throws it will also allow for more variety in player builds. Especially casters.

*Claps hands together.* This has been tried before, and everyone hated it.

And actually, there is an area just like it on the server already, the Stonespear Cave in the Goblin Lakes of the Underdark. Roll a new character, a role-play character with no negative ability score modifiers and an unoptimized build, do no muling of equipment, no partying because usually there are no players in the Underdark to level up with, and try to give that area a fresh run as if you had never played the game before. You know, level up from scratch, and get back to me when you have soloed both levels. That area has spellcasters with Haste, Bigby Five, it has mobs that will abuse HiPS to land sneak attacks and break combat, it has mobs that will use knockdown, and if the casters get their chance to buff up, they will have AC of 35~... This area can be soloed, I have done it, and the two areas have many chests indeed to be looted, however, it does require a powerbuild of sorts to be done alone and even then some powerbuilds will struggle far more than others.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:46 pmSo yes, I do think places like that are a better design. I think gameplay that doesn’t just encourage ‘buff up and charge’ is more engaging and ultimately less grindy. It allows CC and AoE spells to work because Dave’s and HP are not always through the roof. It also cuts down on the UMD dependency somewhat since fighting becomes more than just making sure you can outlast your long lasting opponents.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:46 pmOr more seriously, allow for a variety so skills, strategies and tactics so that buff, extended haste and charge isn’t the ideal way to approach pretty much everything.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:46 pm

YYA wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:09 am

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:31 pm I would put most of the blame on the bgtscc encounter design meta. Most opponents are punching bags with inflated HP and saves.

Adding more casters with CC spells, sneaks with HiPS, opponents who have knock down, haste and/or dimension door to counter kiting, warrior types with higher AB and/or AC, will make the grind more difficult and resource intensive.

It will also make areas more difficult in some respects, but if variety is balanced by lowering the inflated HP and saving throws it will also allow for more variety in player builds. Especially casters.

*Claps hands together.* This has been tried before, and everyone hated it.

And actually, there is an area just like it on the server already, the Stonespear Cave in the Goblin Lakes of the Underdark. Roll a new character, a role-play character with no negative ability score modifiers and an unoptimized build, do no muling of equipment, no partying because usually there are no players in the Underdark to level up with, and try to give that area a fresh run as if you had never played the game before. You know, level up from scratch, and get back to me when you have soloed both levels. That area has spellcasters with Haste, Bigby Five, it has mobs that will abuse HiPS to land sneak attacks and break combat, it has mobs that will use knockdown, and if the casters get their chance to buff up, they will have AC of 35~... This area can be soloed, I have done it, and the two areas have many chests indeed to be looted, however, it does require a powerbuild of sorts to be done alone and even then some powerbuilds will struggle far more than others.

Or more seriously, allow for a variety so skills, strategies, and tactics so that buff, extended haste, and the charge isn’t the ideal way to approach pretty much everything.

YYA wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:13 pm

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:46 pmSo yes, I do think places like that are a better design. I think gameplay that doesn’t just encourage ‘buff up and charge’ is more engaging and ultimately less grindy. It allows CC and AoE spells to work because Dave’s and HP are not always through the roof. It also cuts down on the UMD dependency somewhat since fighting becomes more than just making sure you can outlast your long lasting opponents.

And what do the buffs do once again? Oh yeah, they provide the caster classes a wide variety of immunities. Thus, unless this server is filled with literal 'Anti-Magic' zones, the supposedly more interesting game-play will be nothing more than yet another 'roflestomp' for the caster classes. Which is what happened when it was tried on the surface, and the fourth level of Cloakwood mines used to be a literal deathtrap for anyone who wasn't buffed up to high heaves with every single immunity. Crowd Control spells are useless for the mobs, because player casters have their Freedoms of Movements, AoE spells are useless because of Water domain clerics and Shadowdancing arcanists, etc, etc. Not everyone wants to play a caster, not everyone wants to abuse UMD to high heaven...

And speaking of which, today I went around to run in the Wyverns with a character with 24+ fortitude save, and no Steadfast Determination. You roll one, once, and you just get poisoned. You literally fight against thousand Wyverns, you will get poisoned unless you have that flat out immunity.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:46 pmOr more seriously, allow for a variety so skills, strategies and tactics so that buff, extended haste and charge isn’t the ideal way to approach pretty much everything.

Well, implement the easy mode areas, and you will have exactly that.

MrSmith wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:47 pm

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:46 pm

YYA wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:09 am
*Claps hands together.* This has been tried before, and everyone hated it.

And actually, there is an area just like it on the server already, the Stonespear Cave in the Goblin Lakes of the Underdark. Roll a new character, a role-play character with no negative ability score modifiers and an unoptimized build, do no muling of equipment, no partying because usually there are no players in the Underdark to level up with, and try to give that area a fresh run as if you had never played the game before. You know, level up from scratch, and get back to me when you have soloed both levels. That area has spellcasters with Haste, Bigby Five, it has mobs that will abuse HiPS to land sneak attacks and break combat, it has mobs that will use knockdown, and if the casters get their chance to buff up, they will have AC of 35~... This area can be soloed, I have done it, and the two areas have many chests indeed to be looted, however, it does require a powerbuild of sorts to be done alone and even then some powerbuilds will struggle far more than others.

Or more seriously, allow for a variety so skills, strategies, and tactics so that buff, extended haste, and the charge isn’t the ideal way to approach pretty much everything.

Extended Haste is the bane of any good adventure...

c2k wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:23 pm The real solution to this is quite unattainable at this point in the server's life. You would need to wipe the vault, cap the server at level 20, re-balance the items accordingly, etc. Even if a majority of the players wanted it, I doubt staff would want to dedicate the time to implement it, because it would require a lot of work considering all the scaling back needed.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmI mean, the fact that you’re fighting a thousand wyvrens is the problem. They are relatively easy to kill, no surprises in how you fight them, and it’s easy enough to carry a stack of remove poison potions for when you do get poisoned.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmWyvrens are easy mode. And it’s one of the more popular areas where people run circles for quick XP gains.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmI see encounter design and complaints about the server catering more to building than RP as two sides of the same coin. High AC, saves, melee DPS is the best way to beat wyvrens and pretty much everything else in the server because most encounters are a war of attrition.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmI don’t mean this as a personal attack because running circles through wyvrens is absolutely a popular way to level for everyone but I find it somewhat disingenuous for people to complain about lack of opportunity for RP focused builds while running endless wyvren killing loops.

YYA wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:06 pm

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmI mean, the fact that you’re fighting a thousand wyvrens is the problem. They are relatively easy to kill, no surprises in how you fight them, and it’s easy enough to carry a stack of remove poison potions for when you do get poisoned.

That is a stack of Antidote potions, in addition to a stack of Lesser Restorations to get rid of the constitution damage you have already accumulated. My character had neither with him, and it is just one of those lessons one has to learn and recall through experience.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmWyvrens are easy mode. And it’s one of the more popular areas where people run circles for quick XP gains.

Get that Steadfast Determination with high Fortitude save progression, and you are immune to poison and disease. And apparently Hoihe sent me a discord message how there are things like 'Grapes' and 'Ointments' that give temporary immunity to poison, and how the server has a custom change where Remove Poison apparently provides a temporary immunity to poison. News to me, to be honest. Which once again circles right back to knowing exactly what to do. For example, if you are a Ranger with Manyshot you can quite easily wipe out every single Wyvern long before those have even been given a chance to approach, and thus perhaps even avoid the need to acquire any such immunity in the first place.

But let us imagine that someone without this prior knowledge, someone without these necessary precautions, goes and fights the Wyverns. The combat log slides endlessly with new lines of combat information, getting poisoned is but blue flash in the log, and then the poison damage starts to tick in, and does ever more damage with each tick of the poison, until instead of having hundreds of hit points, your character only has twenty or so. A Wyvern lands a single hit, and then you notice your character is on the red, you try to flee and heal, but then the Wyvern rolls a natural twenty and you are met with a loading screen. It is not hard to imagine how a player might look at the end of the combat log, and simply decide to never fight these Wyverns again. Especially if they are not aware of the game mechanics, or custom server changes.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmI see encounter design and complaints about the server catering more to building than RP as two sides of the same coin. High AC, saves, melee DPS is the best way to beat wyvrens and pretty much everything else in the server because most encounters are a war of attrition.

And it still doesn't change the fact that no matter what tools you give to the mobs, as long as there are dedicated casters, these casters are able to layer themselves with one immunity on top of another, and thus the war of attrition has not gone anywhere. You have just made things harder for anyone without UMD or a full caster level spell book. And the question is, do these other people wish to struggle playing a role-play concept character, or will they simply RCR into something else that offers them far easier time? You may enjoy the challenge of Stonespear Cave of the Underdark, but as for me the only reason I have taken my Underdark character there is simply that the area has more chests than the Troglodyte part of the Underdark, and the chests in the Stonespear cave do not always come with traps that can deal 100+ damage. (Both areas should be about CR9.)

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:01 pmI don’t mean this as a personal attack because running circles through wyvrens is absolutely a popular way to level for everyone but I find it somewhat disingenuous for people to complain about lack of opportunity for RP focused builds while running endless wyvren killing loops.

I have not taken it as in insult, and I do not see why anyone should. But the fact is, we are playing a video game, and part of playing a video game is the sensation of progression. You go up levels, you acquire new things and tools, of which some are far more useful than others, and that is part of the fun. Oh, and once my character got reduced down to 23 hit points, for the second time, my character was largely just sitting in the middle of the map and thinking how he did not wish to anger these engines of destruction and just scurried off. And anyhow, these days: when you grind an area long enough, eventually you might trigger a boss spawn after which no further mobs are spawned in. It gives that chance to breath, talk about the feat achieved, etc.

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As for another source of difficulty on the server, I would point a finger at the Scrying Tool, because in its earlier iterations it actually showed a character's level, but due to complaints that people used it to meta-game characters, etc, the level on the scrying tool was simply changed to a level range. * for 1-10, ** for 11-20, and *** for level 21-30. Before, it was easy to see to the levels, and if you had no clue what to do on this server, you could just open up the scrying tool and have a look at where people of your level have all gone by after the Hill-Tops and whatever. This allows a new player to ask for directions from just about any other player, and continue character progress. But now, all you see are those asterisks. Your character might be level ten, *, and you might see someone with, **, looking for party, but is that someone closer to level 10 or 20 -- you do not know without first sending a tell asking about it. There is no harm done asking about these things, it is a polite community. But let us say that someone just gets unlucky couple of days in a row, the polite people give tips where to head, you decide to try it out all on your own, and then you hit a hard wall. A role-play gimmick build cannot solo one area or another, and come the next server reset, it might be a player's first complete RCR.

Easy mode areas would be a good addition to the server. Set in a row of sorts, so there is some form of logical progression even to a player who knows nothing.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:41 pmAlso yes, a role play gimmick character cannot solo most areas on their own... however again I soloed a pure rouge from 1 - 30 in the UD so I think it can be done, it just takes a lot more patience and careful consideration of what you are fighting and how to fight them. But the main point is, why should the character who gives away all their coin to charity be able to solo to 30? If you want to play that character, play it. But make allies. To echo a previously stated position, the server does not forbid solo play, but it does not actively cater to it either.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:41 pmAnd as for the fully buffed caster or kiting ranger, yes, that is a problem. But as I've been saying it's a problem with the meta. When the majority of encounters boil down to high HP/saving throw opponents who have no option but to charge then there are definitely easy mode builds to play. But maybe the difference between our points of view is that I don't see that as a solution but part of the problem.