The Bladesinger PRC

[mrm3ntalist]

Oh no no, you are mistaking this discussion as a something that isn't known for sure. The simple fact is that I am right, and your logic of balance is broken. Your ideal of balance are ranger and paladin, to whom you look to when determining the power of all new classes, while bards and favored souls exist within your system and you refuse to tone either down towards what you consider the ideal of balance. There is no "maybe" in this, your logic is simply wrong.

Thats perfectly fine. We can easily deal with a couple of posts coming from you telling us that you are right and we are wrong. This is great!

[chad878262]

Why? So I could spend my days arguing with people who are too stubborn to realize when their entire idea of balance is wrong? No thanks. I'd rather focus on more important things, while leaving a comment or two here and there, proving to you every single time how wrong you are.

Proving? Where is your proof? When did this become about FvS and Bard again? Has anyone ever argued they are well balanced? Meh, enjoy your anger over our lack of balance as you continue logging in to play.

[Zanniej]

I thank you all very much for participating, but it seems to me this topic has served it's purpose.

If you disagree with the QC-team you're welcome to apply for a position, and discuss things higher up the chain. Please do remember the QC-team is not picked at random. As such you have to trust in their judgement, even if you disagree. They have to think up what a balanced class is for everybody, while staying consistent with lore as much as possible. It's impossible to cater to everybody's needs and wishes, but they take great care and a lot of time and thought in creating and implementing such a class.

Should anyone disagree with this lock, and still have new input on this topic, then feel free to send the moderator team a PM, and we'll discuss whether the topic warrants to be unlocked.

[Valefort]

Little tweaks and DM team calls regarding races, alignment and consequences. There is also a drow version, deathsinger, whose abilities will be the exact same except the level 8th one, Freezing Field ability will be replaced by Weakening Cloud, which instead of slowing creatures will daze them (but with a lower DC of 5 + deathsinger levels + INT modifier), the AB and AC penalties are the same as freezing field. Alignment requirement for deathsinger is any evil and dark seldarine, exception made of Eilistraee where you have to be good aligned.

Here is where the Bladesinger PRC stands at the moment :
[table][th][/th][th][/th][tr][td]Bladesinger[/td][td]

Bladesinger

Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesinger’s lithe movements and subtle tactics seem beautiful, belying their deadly martial efficiency. Bladesingers have a treasured place in elf society, balancing the joys of art and magic with the skill of masterful fighting, and so bladesingers are well-respected by other elves. They usually serve as itinerant guardians and champions of the elf community at large rather than tying themselves to one particular settlement. Multiclass fighter/wizards can become bladesingers most easily, though any elf who can wield a martial weapon and cast arcane spells can become a bladesinger.

Bladesinging ranger/wizards or rogue/wizards are not unknown.

Most bladesingers work alone, sufficient unto themselves, but in larger communities they sometimes have the opportunity to fight together in the same combat. Bladesingers are normally trained singly by another bladesinger, and the concept of anything as formalized as a bladesinger school is an absurd notion to them.

Requirements:

Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier)
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Race: Elf or Half-elf
Alignment: Any good.
Deity: Any god of the Seldarine.
Spellcasting: Able to cast arcane spells of 1st level (Wizard or Sorc only).
Skills: Concentration 4, Perform 4, Tumble 2

Class Features:

- Hit Die: d8
- Base Attack Bonus: High.
- High Saves: Reflex, Will.
- Weapon Proficiencies: None
- Armor Proficiencies: Light.
- Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier.
- Class Skills: Concentration, Lore: Arcana, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Nobility & Royalty, Perform, Spellcraft, Tumble.

Special : a Bladesinger straying from the required alignment or deity automatically loses his abilities, those are automatically restored if the Bladesinger meets the requirements again.

Class Abilities:

Level 1: Bladesong Style, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2: Skill focus Lore : Local
Level 3:
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5:
Level 6: Song of Celerity
Level 7:
Level 8: Freezing field
Level 9:
Level 10: Greater Spellsong

- Spellcasting: At every odd level and 10th level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Bladesinger, you must decide which class gains the increased casting ability.

- Bladesong Style: When wielding a longsword or rapier and having nothing in the off-hand, a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to half her class level, up to a maximum of half her Intelligence modifier. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style. This bonus will not stack with the AC bonus granted by Invisible Blade or Duelist.

- Skill focus Lore : Local: A bladesinger is immersed in the traditions and the ways of his people as part of his training.

- Song of Celerity (Ex): A bladesinger can imbue his sword with any hostile spell he memorized, only one spell at a time can be imbued within the weapon. It is cast at the target on a successful melee attack.

- Freezing field: A bladesinger of 8th level is taught the spell Freezing field. Created ages ago to freeze the area around dragon wings to block and slow them so that they can't fly away this spell greatly reduces the movement speed of everyone in the area of effect and hampers both their offense and defense.

Specifics : Speed decrease : 80, AC penalty 2, AB penalty -2. Fortitude save for halving the effects (cold immunity cancels the effect completely).
DC is 10 + Bladesinger levels + spellcasting ability modifier.
Duration : 1 round per bladesinger level.

This ability can be used two times per day.

- Greater Spellsong (Ex): A bladesinger of 10th level ignores arcane spell failure chances when wearing light armor.

- Bonus Feat: At 4th level, the bladesinger gets a bonus feat. These feats must be drawn from the following list: any reserve feat, Blind-fight, Feint, One Hander, Deadly Defense, Disarm, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.

[/td][/tr][/table]

Regarding the tanky bladesinger blaster path, while the AC would be there (if a little lower) they wouldn't be able to use iron body spell, which is quite important for tanking (at least they would get a huge spell failure, making it impractical as greater bladesong cancels only the ASF given by the light armor being worn) so nothing was done to curb down the AC they can get as it remains inferior to a usual auto still wizard.

Bonus feat list was tweaked, no more metamagic feats but reserve feats and more martial feats added.

Also a note on song of celerity : any hostile spell can be stored in the sword through it, from reserve spell to epic spell. Those can't be metamagiced so far (rather the metamagic won't be taken into account), and must have a hostile target (so no hostile AoE cast on self like fireburst).

[7threalm]

Specifics : Speed decrease : 80, AC penalty 2, AB penalty -2. Fortitude save for halving the effects (cold immunity cancels the effect completely).
DC is 10 + Bladesinger levels + spellcasting ability modifier.
Duration : 1 round per bladesinger level

so even if you pass the save you have -40 movement ac 1, ab -1?

[Valefort]

Yes

[7threalm]

can freedom of movement counter it, i know move decreases are wonky in nwn2

[Valefort]

No reason it won't work.

[Tantive]

I'm still looking for the representation of the free hand for spelling whilst fighting with the sword in the other. I've been going over many of the technical possibilities over with Valefort and Aspect of Sorrow, if its possible to have spell and melee in the same round.

Alternatively having the full int bonus to AC for the lost round of melee, to represent defensive fighting with the sword is a good option, and not all that differing from lore. The free hand could also be an additional defensive option in melee, in form of a better counterspell. In one of the first battles of a book I read with a bladesinger, showed this tactic. He was assaulted by a bandit, parried the blow coming in, and subsequently counterspelled the fire spell being cast by the bandit partner further away with the free hand, fizzling it.

[Mallore]

I'm still looking for the representation of the free hand for spelling whilst fighting with the sword in the other. I've been going over many of the technical possibilities over with Valefort and Aspect of Sorrow, if its possible to have spell and melee in the same round.

Alternatively having the full int bonus to AC for the lost round of melee, to represent defensive fighting with the sword is a good option, and not all that differing from lore. The free hand could also be an additional defensive option in melee, in form of a better counterspell. In one of the first battles of a book I read with a bladesinger, showed this tactic. He was assaulted by a bandit, parried the blow coming in, and subsequently counterspelled the fire spell being cast by the bandit partner further away with the free hand, fizzling it.

I think this class is powerful enough it doesnt need more power and the suggestion your making is already that More Power.

It got a On hit DC 30 death spell that is not counter-able, hips-able, and unless your Deathwarded you have a vorpal affect on a roll of 1, or if your not a power build a possible fail on 8 or lower. Oh, don't want a death affect, how about a On hit Mords, no one else has this because it stacks with all your melee blows! at a pretty danm good AB.

I get you want to do, it is based on the books but no one else gets this. In the stories a rogue can Cut you, kill you and do so all with out breaking stealth, Or jump out of a shadow, strike you and hide again all before you can act which is possible in Paper and Pen, and is how they are writen in story books. But this isnt granted here. Why should this?

Story's are cool and romanticize things, but what your asking for is abusive to the game mechanics and balance. You want more of what no one else has and on reasons that everyone else has but at greater lore and fluff support.

But in the end i get why you want want it, it looks cool, its lore its fine. However once again everyone else has lore to that is better supportive of what your proposing and is not getting it, oh and are under powered compared to this class.

[chad878262]

I'm still looking for the representation of the free hand for spelling whilst fighting with the sword in the other. I've been going over many of the technical possibilities over with Valefort and Aspect of Sorrow, if its possible to have spell and melee in the same round.

This is what the ability to charge a spell to your sword is there to (partially) show. The charged spell going off with the attack is quite a powerful Nova ability, but there are engine limitations to attacking and casting in the same round. NWN2 is set up with rules for Quicken Spell that allow you to cast two spells in one round, but even with quicken you can't cast a spell and then attack. Instead Valefort coded an ability to charge a spell to the weapon.

Alternatively having the full int bonus to AC for the lost round of melee, to represent defensive fighting with the sword is a good option, and not all that differing from lore. The free hand could also be an additional defensive option in melee, in form of a better counterspell. In one of the first battles of a book I read with a bladesinger, showed this tactic. He was assaulted by a bandit, parried the blow coming in, and subsequently counterspelled the fire spell being cast by the bandit partner further away with the free hand, fizzling it.

The class is already getting an INT bonus to AC and doesn't need more. As I said in a previous post, the fact that there are comments about the OP'ness and others about how weak it is generally makes me think that it is balanced fine as it is. It's a neat class with some cool abilities that will set it apart, it will have things it does better than an EK/DS build, but is not necessarily more powerful than what can be built today.

[Tantive]

The class is already getting an INT bonus to AC and doesn't need more. As I said in a previous post, the fact that there are comments about the OP'ness and others about how weak it is generally makes me think that it is balanced fine as it is. It's a neat class with some cool abilities that will set it apart, it will have things it does better than an EK/DS build, but is not necessarily more powerful than what can be built today.

Op and Weakness is entirally dependant on the classes it is compared to. What matters more is the field it engages in. Melee range while spellcasting, and supposed to be complimentary. This means checks in concentration versus AB for melee and ranged attacks, attacks of opportunity for every enemy in melee range, and long waits between the switching of combat rounds, or continual switchings between Defensive casting, CE, PA, Deadly Defense, selection of enemies, in non pausable six second time frames. Now the imbuement of the sword sits also in the same space of nonaction, and since you use a spell, that also is going to use concentration checks.

I think this class is powerful enough it doesnt need more power and the suggestion your making is already that More Power.

It got a On hit DC 30 death spell that is not counter-able, hips-able, and unless your Deathwarded you have a vorpal affect on a roll of 1, or if your not a power build a possible fail on 8 or lower.

Its not going to get that high dcs at all, you're already running with practised spellcaster, need high Int, which suffers from the problem you need high AB because you have to hit it with a sword, which means you also need a complimentary fighter type class, which draws dc lower again. And it is also a necromancy spell with death descriptor, which elves don't like to use. It is far more useful just using the ranged touch attack as a higher AB character because its easier to hit. And since it would cost a full round action to apply it to your sword, it might just as be cast when in range. A Deathward(which lasts hours) or Shadowshield which is in the repetoire of almost every wizard. Any 1's can be shrugged by steadfast as well.

Where imbuement of the sword would largely be useful for is first hit pvp, and really nothing else. As you can loose the charge to anything coming in melee range, from a boss to a a bandit.

[Mallore]

Its not going to get that high dcs at all, you're already running with practised spellcaster, need high Int, which suffers from the problem you need high AB because you have to hit it with a sword, which means you also need a complimentary fighter type class, which draws dc lower again.

First AB 42 DC 28 is very easy to achieve on this class. So it is a vorpal affect, as roll a one you die. no one else has this on the server.

And it is also a necromancy spell with death descriptor, which elves don't like to use.

Does not stop them from using it. infact players will use it, and we both know there is nothing to stop them from doing so. "its not rp'' is not good enough to stop the affect and some will just feign ignorance of the issue. Will the elven characters remove elves from Doron Amar for putting Wail of the Banshee into their sword? Doubt it, we both know we would like to see it happen but it wont.

It is far more useful just using the ranged touch attack as a higher AB character because its easier to hit.

Sure but this is a class that likes to get into melee. or better yet, sit back and blast and when gets engaged gets a free get out of jail card with a save or die affect.

And since it would cost a full round action to apply it to your sword, it might just as be cast when in range.

No... this is cast 2 hours ago when you where resting at fia. It does not have a time limit. This spell can be cast and put into the blade when ever. So you can do it after a rest and sit with this Vorpal Blade as you roleplay. Ambush Set Hostile, hit with sword, Wail affect, save or die. Oh to bad it was on the swords to Hit, because it wasnt counter spellable or hipsable, as the normal spell should be. This is a wail with the quicken feat. this is a level 13 spell.

If you say RP wouldn't allow for this, then there should be no problem restricting level 7, 8 and 9 spells from the sword blade.

A Deathward(which lasts hours) or Shadowshield which is in the repetoire of almost every wizard. Any 1's can be shrugged by steadfast as well.

So your sollution is have deathward.. which not everyone has access to because this server in the name of "balance" doesnt make 1/day items with this ability. but this is a different argument for a different topic. 1's will happen. this is a vorpal affect and NO ONE has one why should this class get one?

Where imbuement of the sword would largely be useful for is first hit pvp, and really nothing else. As you can loose the charge to anything coming in melee range, from a boss to a a bandit.

Yes Fist hit PVP useful. no one else gets save or die on a melee stick. Why does this class get that?

As for you can loose the charge to anything coming in melee is not true, as bosses do not have monster pads with them anymore on this server. Name one? frost King? well he is set up really easy for you to reveal yourself and he will solo charge you out of his room and engage alone with out his Pads with him! this is how you can solo him easier, just sit by the tree outside his door.

How about the Medusa queen in serpant hills. She has NO ONE with her in her room, hide around corner, she will not engage, buff your blade go in for alpha strike.

Chaos? you can run up to her and punch her in the face with out engaging her summon or flame skull body guard. as you move before they react. If you run at her, you will base her with no problem. Her first action is usually to summon the balor, but you got to base her and melee her with your vorpal stick, which is probably better with a IGMS on it.


So the people who say "oh a random monster will get in the way of the boss" either have not fought a boss in a long time, or know better and seam to have forgotten the truth.

[BigJ]

Firstly regarding that one post I made few pages ago I was just getting frustrated because the 3 staff members posting here weren't seeing what I was, it happens. I apologise for that post, there are better ways to do things.

However, in an attempt to clarify what I saw, here it is:

Bladesinger Blaster

NOTES: Add Extend feat for that BS feat. No spell prodigy as didn't need it for saves, and only gained two spell slots.

AC = 58 : 10 (base) + 3 (tumble) + 4 (dodge) +4 (deflection) + 6 (IMA) +4 (shield) + 5 (shadow shield) + 6 (ICE) + 6 (mithral chain mail) +4 (DEX) + 5 (INT to AC) +1 (Dodge feat)

Bab / AB: 22 ( 5 attacks) / 37 : +5 (STR) +5 (GMW) + 4 (Grt Hero) +1 (WF), Note Bab 25 has been stated as being the max for a gish build. My melee-lock was a wrecking ball on PvE in the UD, the max bab he ever had was 40.

You can switch off ICE (52ac) and go with summon, like a normal wizard, only you can melee better for those low/mid mobs. Then when you reach the boss switch on ICE and blast. He may hit you now and then on that first attack (Ie Pit Fiend has +40 ab I think) but then they have to get pass your mirror image and 50% conceal. He'll also have a hard job confirming a crit to bypass mirror image.

Of course that's assuming you do play through to the Boss without resting. Depends on the map I guess.

Re the blasting, I loaded up Vordans + Kaerdins to build a version of this to look at the spellbook.

It had 66 spells (with a angrays slave collar (0,1,2,3) and wizard ring (1 x 4 level). There are more spell slot items around but those would do for now. I filled up like this. I did this rather quickly so could perhaps be better.

Self Buff: Prot Evil, IMA, GMW, Elemental Immune, Sup. Resistance, Grt Stoneskin. Extended: Shield, Bulls, Bear, Cats, Shadow Shield, Grt Heroism, blindsight.
Summon + Buff: Gate, Lvl 9 summon (backup), Prot Evil, IMA, Spiderskin, Animal Instincts.
Auto Quickened: 7 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8), 6 x Ice darts (9 x 2d4+1).
Further Quickened: 1 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8), 2 x Arc of Lightning (21d6), 2 x IGMS (12 x 2d6)
Empowered: 7 x Orb of Sound (18d6), 2 x Polar Ray (30d6)
Maximised: 1 x Ice Darts (9 x 2d4+1), 4 x Orb of Sound (18d6), 3 x IGMS (12 x 2d6), 2 x Arc of Lightning (21d6)
Other: Assay, 2 x Avasculate, lssr breach, grt breach, Mirror Image x 2 (Auto quick), Ext. Displacement, 2 x Ext Haste.

So to repeat, buff you and summon then melee through low/mid mobs, reach the boss and blast.

The blast would be: Assay (if needed), Avasculate x 2, Vamp Feast, and then nearly 3000hp of blasting spells cast in less than 2mins (18 quickened, 19 Empowered or maxed)

Killing a boss solo (inc UD Pit Fiend?) in just over 2mins, Top Tier?

Notes:

- You can tweak str/Int to preference. Ie. Dropping to 28 Int loses 1 ac, 2 spells, put it in STR.
- If you did go with 28 INT you could instead of STR drop two epic INT feats for other stuff.
- I'm not sure what % damage Avasculate does on a boss (Ie Pit Fiend, 20-25%??), I know Vamp Feast does around 1200 rather than half hit point.
- I love the quick/max IMGS even with its SR (144dmg + 12 x 2d6). The sound spells (change to suit) would mostly be 108 + 9d8.
- You can reduce the number of quickened spells for emp/max, increasing casting time but also damage. You could even drop auto-quick 2, and use empowered spells there.
- If you are happy with 55ac on a blaster, you could drop ICE for something else.
- Using a lot of RTA spells with no save / sr, so maybe take imp crit RTA. You've a high ab for a caster, so wont miss and rolls of 1 or 20 will balance out.

There are quite a few tweaks you can make to this, dealers choice. Point being its High AC, can melee much better than other casters with a buffed summon, then blast the hells out of a boss mob (High damage) with relative safety.

Having 4 or 5 ac added by a PrC that STILL KEEPS IT whilst wearing armour, and giving that PrC the FREE ABILITY to cast in armour, creates an almost untouchable blaster unless a mob has better ab than 40. Even then it still has to get past the usual Mirror Image, Conceal and DR.

Will probably be pretty good at PvP too. I guess that is why there are way more ASoC builds on the server than any other arcane PrC, and it combines very nicely with this proposed Bladesinger PrC.

Question - In my test with Vordans + Kaerdrins Bladesinger I could cast fine with Stone Body active (No ASF). Is bgtscc code/method different?

Bigger Question: There are many ways to trim, change, tweak this build. Minor points or errors aside, what is the answer to whether my build above is 'Top Tier'?

[mrm3ntalist]

Question - In my test with Vordans + Kaerdrins Bladesinger I could cast fine with Stone Body active (No ASF). Is bgtscc code/method different?

Stone body gets you ASF. Only still/autostill allows you to cast. Bladesingers get 0 asf when using light armor. Anything else ( shields, heavier armors, spells ) add ASF

Bigger Question: There are many ways to trim, change, tweak this build. Minor points or errors aside, what is the answer to whether my build above is 'Top Tier'?

Your build will solo most bosses that most builds can ( FK, Pit fiend in the Nashkel mines etc ). The top bosses, it is going to die. Why? Low AB even lower damage and you will run out of spells. A typical Sorck10/EK10/DS10 can solo the Balor ( with a bit of luck since the bigby 5 was nerfed ), your build highly unlikely.