'Wilderness / Open PVP area'

[Steve]

How about a PvP Area with no rules and, if your PC is defeated, they are permanently dead. Sound fun?!

Cause the thing is, if you start a fight, you'd better be able to win, or die. Or, you could agree to a knockdown, but then, you are dueling. So there is more honor there, and thus, one can do that nearly anywhere already on the Server.

[Darkwind]

Who is picking a fight and who is demanding stuff?

Not sure Darkwind is picking a fight exactly, but he is using pretty harsh comparisons and others have done that as well for instance in the xp increase topic.

I'll take credit for "pretty harsh" but certainly wasn't picking a fight and as I said the numbers tell the tale. Perhaps a back-handed compliment in some eyes? But a compliment nonetheless....

Anyhow, yes part of my language was frustration based as we were sort of bandying about ideas, etc. and then this metaphorical banhammer (as I've alluded to) crashed down saying. This isn't going to happen. ---End of line.

So at that point, why proceed? As I said, I see this --a lot-- IRL so I'm quite familiar with it and I close my briefcase and thank everyone and shake hands. This is the virtual equivalent which is why I left the statement in the assets column of a great playerbase. But it doesn't alter the reality of my statement. Mgmt and the old timers have no interest, so it has died on the vine. Move on and enjoy the server for what it is, or do not. That is my intention anyways.

As an aside, what I don't like is the insinuation I'm taking 'shots', I am not. I've mentioned before here and there I was heavily involved in a NWN world years ago as a designer & DM and am brutally aware of the effort and time it takes to make a place like this run. That is why I stepped back because I'm not the one putting in the crazy ass amount of work here making it happen.

[dedude]

Just because management doesn't want to take the server in the direction you wish, doesn't mean the server has stagnated or will stop evolving.

[Maverick 40]

How about a PvP Area with no rules and, if your PC is defeated, they are permanently dead. Sound fun?!

Cause the thing is, if you start a fight, you'd better be able to win, or die. Or, you could agree to a knockdown, but then, you are dueling. So there is more honor there, and thus, one can do that nearly anywhere already on the Server.

Don't be so dramatic Steve. Simple solution here. Player dies, he is warped to an infirmary for which he must stay for 15-20 minutes. There is a very similiar script in place for Baldur's Gate City Guard and the jail. I would imagine it wouldn't take much to do the same, only thing I would change is that evil characters go to one infirmary while the good characters go to another (which can be set in the RP lore very easily in the development of the area).

[Steve]

Sarcasm does not equal drama!

[Maecius]

I have no issue with people discussing this. Thank you to those who defended "management." I definitely do appreciate it. But, at least speaking for myself, I am not offended by criticism or open conversation. I would have probably left staff a long time ago if I were.

I just don't want to lead anyone on, is all. To me, it's important that I'm clear about these things so that people don't feel like I'm wasting their time with false promises or "we'll think about it" dismissals.

As a general statement: One of the things that probably isn't going to gain traction with me is anything that creates more rules confusion. I think we have too many rules already. Each and every one of those rules was created in response to an issue we've dealt with in the past, and they are, of course, important for this reason; but I would like to streamline our rules, not add to them.

Historically speaking, whenever we have tried to have two sets of rules -- one applying to "section A" and another applying to "section B" -- it's been a mess. The most recent example of this was when we had a separate set of forum rules for the suggestions forum. It confused people and made life hard for everybody.

I think someone suggested earlier that if you don't like the PVP rules, lobby for an alteration of the rules as a whole, not the creation of a separate set of rules. And that would probably be the best advice in my opinion.

Ultimately, though, and even as I suggest that, I'm probably going to support the DMs on whatever they feel is appropriate for PVP rules. The DMs are the ones who have to deal with PVP and PVP fallout. It only comes to me if things have gone really bad. And (this is just me thinking back on my days as a DM) I'd say about 75% of the instances where DMs have to get involved because a player is upset have to do with a PVP encounter gone wrong or a PVP encounter where someone was unhappy with how it played out. From the staff side of the fence, then, PVP is more often associated with "problems," not "roleplay." And in a way it always has been.

I do think PVP is important to roleplay, and that the threat of PVP is important to realistic interactions and engagements between hostile characters. Some of my most memorable encounters in character have been confrontations that either threatened to go to PVP or actually did go to PVP. I've literally been able to feel my heart pounding once or twice when the scene was really high stakes!

But I've also sunk dozens of hours into dealing with PVP gone bad as a DM, a HDM, and an admin, so I know how much of a headache it can be for the DMs to have to manage. I'd rather not add to their headache by further complicating our existing PVP rules. They're already confusing enough as it stands.

[aaron22]

how is no rules complicated? also seems like an easy, "*shrug* its no rules in there. you knew that going in." response to greifers from a DM.

[K'yon Oblodra]

how is no rules complicated? also seems like an easy, "*shrug* its no rules in there. you knew that going in." response to greifers from a DM.

I think that newer players already might not know about the rules or might have trouble understanding them and if they went into that area possibly ignoring the warnings for whatever reason they might have, it might result in more crying possibly even players leaving the server out of frustration.

It's just an extra source of error as it sets different rules for a certain area even if those are no rules they still differ from the norm.

[Akroma666]

So what's wrong with wild west PvP rules?

No PvP in towns, when you're in the open anything goes.. if your caught murdering, welcome to outlaw status and you can gain a permastrike.

[Steve]

So what's wrong with wild west PvP rules?

No PvP in towns, when you're in the open anything goes.. if your caught murdering, welcome to outlaw status and you can gain a permastrike.

What is probably wrong with this is, Lvl 30's waiting for lowbies in a "open/non-city" or guarded Area, then insta-killing Characters.

A "wild west PvP rules" might work if ALL the participants were within 3 levels of each other, but even then....

[Lighters]

Players, balance, lag, and different play styles are what are wrong with 'wild west' pvp.

What is wrong with following current rules to achieve the same?

[aaron22]

I just have such a difficult time seeing how no rules is more complicated then the plethora of rules we have regarding pvp in all other areas. Confusing for new players? Just put it in a zone no level 1 would be able to go without serious premeditated thought. It's more likely a player 1 could run into wyvern forest than say the troll claws it's because it is hard to get there accidentally.

[Lighters]

Are there a lot of instances where RPing PVP makes sense and you just couldnt do it with the rules currently in place?

I dont understand the motive for a separate area, I guess. To me, if RP calls for PVP the current rules allow it quite handily. If we are going to make sweeping changes or mixed rules for areas, it seems like there should be a great need.

Tell us of a time when you really wanted to PVP someone, and the current rules inhibited it. Not theoretical mind you, but a real instance. Are there many?

[Akroma666]

So what's wrong with wild west PvP rules?

No PvP in towns, when you're in the open anything goes.. if your caught murdering, welcome to outlaw status and you can gain a permastrike.

What is probably wrong with this is, Lvl 30's waiting for lowbies in a "open/non-city" or guarded Area, then insta-killing Characters.

A "wild west PvP rules" might work if ALL the participants were within 3 levels of each other, but even then....

That's fair, but I feel like that's griefing.. just make a no griefing rule, a golden rule, and then boom that replaces the mound of rules we have.

RP out makes no sense if you hire an assassin or are a ruthless trade way bandit. Just doesn't make sense to yell "your money or your life" and then sit there and let them hand you 25g and walk away.

Wild west rules work in soubar, why not everywhere other than a guarded city? I'm sure you can just make a sweet script that auto-hostiles the guards when PvPing in front of them.

[Steve]

Not to toot my own horn, but I'm pretty sure I could come up with an "RP excuse" to nearly attack any other toon at any time. lol. And I'm not even the most creative RP'er around town! So proving something is griefing over just role-play, is probably a DM's greatest nightmare.

By the way...I did not think that Soubar is outside the normal PvP rules?? I think it is just more that you do not need to worry about guards/NPCs caring if you start a fight...or finish one either!!