'Wilderness / Open PVP area'

[aaron22]

Soubar is not pvp open without the rp out. It is like steve says just a city where pvp in front of npcs doesn't cause a meta instance.

Are there a lot of instances where RPing PVP makes sense and you just couldnt do it with the rules currently in place?

I dont understand the motive for a separate area, I guess. To me, if RP calls for PVP the current rules allow it quite handily. If we are going to make sweeping changes or mixed rules for areas, it seems like there should be a great need.

Tell us of a time when you really wanted to PVP someone, and the current rules inhibited it. Not theoretical mind you, but a real instance. Are there many?

Everyone I log my orcs. And should be enough erytime someone runs into one of my orcs in the game.

This is a world of fantasy adventure. Give me one instance Inside of forgotten realms literature that shows an example of a pvp out. Protagonists get the jump on antagonists and antagonist jump Protagonists. We live inside that world. Every single moment should be open pvp. I am fully in understanding that DMS cannot be everywhere all the time and pvp in front of guards and keepers of order have to be considered and rped appropriately. We must also consider enjoyment of all. Pvp mongering and bullying is not acceptable behavior. It is poor taste and self centered. I do not and will not support any such behavior. An area that is beyond our rules of pvp is both realistic and provides an avenue to rp, adveture, questing and player wide enjoyment. I am not saying everyone will want to go to that area, but simply knowing it is there will give a new kind of excitement to player base.

[Cowbot]

I've read every post of all 14 pages of this thread, and carefully weighed every argument.

PvPers would be incorrect if they were to say having a new zone be created would not affect those who do not wish to PvP: It causes added confusion to at-risk players (imagine a new player going there, ignoring the NPCs, and getting ganked), added drama, uses development time that could be spent on other projects, and the server is already trying to reduce the number of zones because the number of zones is a leading cause of lag. There are other factors, of course, but that seems to be the gist of what has been mentioned.

The benefit would be that a subset of players could get a lot of amusement from this zone. Under a utilitarian scheme, this could still be a reasonable trade-off! It would be possible to gauge carefully if it would be worth it by weighing various factors.

However, that trade-off is totally unnecessary. The PvPers want an open no-rules zone where they can PvP without an RP-out that would not affect those that do not wish to PvP. There exists a solution where PvPers can get exactly this without having to add a new zone.

1) Identify a zone that is largely unused and would be fun to PvP in.
2) Join the PvP club, here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=438 and make sure to include the names of pseudonyms of your character in case of disguises.
3) Go to the PvP club, make arrangements with other players to rule that the chosen zone is "Open PvP."
4) Copy-paste the character names from the PvP club into a text file.
5) Whenever you encounter a character in that zone, do a quick CTRL-F of their name in the text file. If it is in the file, proceed to attack as desired. If it is not, PvP as normal (with RP out).

PvPers now have an open PvP zone where DMs and players can run events. The DMs could shout to everyone that they are running a PvP event so people don't get into something they don't want.

Meanwhile, non-PvPers do not have to remember any additional rules, and are not at any additional risk of being griefed.

PvPers could even not use the PvP club if they'd prefer normal PvP rules outside of the zone: Just make a new forum thread titled "Open PvP in [zone name] club."

I feel the "we should support a variety of playstyles" argument is a good one. But this cuts both ways: People who like having an RP out before PvP also deserve to be able to maintain their playstyle. The above method preserves both styles excellently. The only concession is that PvPers have to search the name list before attacking. I think this is a reasonable thing to ask, as it takes almost no time to do.

[aaron22]

@cowbot

I think you totally missed the point. You read every post, but didn't get what the ones for it are wanting. We are not solely looking for a place that pvp contests can be had. Another part is to bring danger to the setting. All players at level 30 or even less can skate through the whole setting without the fear of being bested. This one single zone would change that. The DMs are the best opponent. But they cannot be here all the time. They are very busy and have much on their plates we players are the next best opponents. We are on all the time and offer something that DMS do not. Players will not be opposed to steamrolling. The players bring a wide variety of skill and technique to a battle. To cross this map would bring back the thing that left us all at level 30. Fear. And that is what everyone should be looking at achieving. Because fear whether you want to believe it or not IS FUN.

[Lighters]

Fun. For you. (And me sometimes too, honestly, but that's a separate issue imo).

Not fun for everyone, though, which is where all the DM time, grieving, OOC BS, etc. makes this quite a headache.

You want fear, it seems like the solution posed above would work great. If you want danger, open a thread offering to be PVP'd without an out and list your characters. I am sure everyone else who wants fear and danger will do so too. The current thread is old and massive. Start a new one?

If you just want to make sure everyone is scared, though, why are you worried about how others enjoy the game?

[Akroma666]

@cowbot

Who is honestly going to honestly search through a word doc to see if they can PvP someone instantly.. that is completely monotonous.

[aaron22]

Because I not only want to have fun but help others to have fun as well. I do think think that the fear = fun is isolated to just a few players. I think if people are honest with themselves they would admit it as well. Or else there wouldn't be so much passive aggressive roleplaying.

My confrontational PC's have right at the top of the examine that I do not require a pvp out and that all are considered hostile unless proven otherwise. I don't monger with them, I do run into other players occasionally so I carry with me that fear and it IS FUN. It is not for everyone all the time. I am not saying that. It is not like it is forced upon everyone. If you want safe and sound. Hang out at the fai or da etc. all day long.

Let's say for instance that the road from beregost to Nashkel is the open zone. It would be near impossible for a new player to accidentally go there. A level 1-5 would never make it through the goblins without some meta knowledge. And they would have to make it past the fai which is the most populated areas on the server. Warnings to stay away would be most likely from other players if they happened to not see any of the posted signs. I realize that that road is not the best example of a lore based scenario. It's just an example. There are likely far better zones that are better lore wise and player safety wise.

But I digress. I honesty think It would be fun. I also honestly understand that I am not omnipotent. The server is amazing and I want nothing but the best for it. And if many people who are better than me think this is not best, then so be it.

[Vermilion]

I think for RP "realism" (always an odd word in a world of magic and dragons) there should be no RP-out anywhere on the server but this carries a whole suite of problems of its own. After all, it's also more "realistic" for gold to have weight, characters to be impeded by their injuries, and for all PCs to have active hunger, thirst and fatigue risks when exploring, but none of these things would be popular if enforced on the player base.

My confrontational PC's have right at the top of the examine that I do not require a pvp out and that all are considered hostile unless proven otherwise. I don't monger with them, I do run into other players occasionally so I carry with me that fear and it IS FUN. It is not for everyone all the time. I am not saying that. It is not like it is forced upon everyone. If you want safe and sound. Hang out at the fai or da etc. all day long.

I think Aaron's approach is a great one - no need to check a forum post midgame (and if you're an opted-in PvPer, who's going to risk Alt-Tabbing out to look at the forum when you're in a PvP zone?!), if the character has opted into PvP then it's stated clearly in their Examine description and you can engage/RP at will.

Opt-in systems are better for everyone - that way you can be sure that your fun isn't coming at the cost of someone else's, and that's the top rule we should all be following here.

[aaron22]

Alot of mmorpg ( bad word of know) use a fatigue thirst and hunger system. Some in different forms but alive for sure. And it's no more a burden then ammo is.

Let's look at eq2's version. With the crafting system food and drink have a real time duration that provides a minor buff depending upon type and quality. And fatigue is utilized as a xp decrease once (x) amount of time had been spent adventuring (gaining xp). This meter recharges constantly but at a much slower rate than xp gaining can be made. On rp servers you are not awarded rp xp, so this is how they promote and dictate rp time. Of course it was owned by Sony, so you could get recharges by paying real money. Corporate vampirism or sheep shearing techniques. Hence eq2 rp servers are a huge joke compared to this.

Realism is something that can be implemented. It's just a matter of where to begin and where to stop. I would prefer that I never have to tell my companions that I cannot go to the dragon lair because it's laundry day.

[Vermilion]

Realism is something that can be implemented. It's just a matter of where to begin and where to stop. I would prefer that I never have to tell my companions that I cannot go to the dragon lair because it's laundry day.

The party bursts into the Inner Sanctum of the evil necromancer, but he is nowhere to be seen.

"Excuse me one moment," comes a hoarse, dusty voice from behind a curtain, "I'll see to thwarting you do-gooders once I've finished in the bathroom."

Sorry about that.

[DM Lobo]

It is difficult, because the players are very divided about this, as I pointed out before -- the community is always mixed when a new idea is brought to the table. I do agree that this idea does come with a lot of possible issues and backlash, and as Maecius pointed out our rules are confusing at the best of times, so this would throw everything all up in the air so to speak.

I do feel the 'danger' feeling is lacking, as players are used to been cuddled and hand-held through everything (even DM events) I did have some early drafts to arrange PVP based events to cater to players who are into this sort of thing -- but the rules are very firm on our stance on aiding in PVP. If something like this is done in the future it should be made very clear to the player what the area is with several prompts before they go in

[Steve]

I'd like to see a clarification made.

That is: a difference between confrontational role-play vs. mechanical "besting" of one Build over another.

As well: a difference between Player vs. Player—something OOC—and Character vs. Character (CvC), being in-character antagonism (for lack of better words).

This thread seems to go through all of the above, but cannot manage to settle on how the OP would create a greater sense of "better" for any of the above, at least, more so than can be achieved at this very minute.

[aaron22]

I'd like to see a clarification made.

That is: a difference between confrontational role-play vs. mechanical "besting" of one Build over another.

As well: a difference between Player vs. Player—something OOC—and Character vs. Character (CvC), being in-character antagonism (for lack of better words).

This thread seems to go through all of the above, but cannot manage to settle on how the OP would create a greater sense of "better" for any of the above, at least, more so than can be achieved at this very minute.

As stated earlier by calodan..

I don't remember of if anyone here remembers or knows about DAOC. (Dark Age of Camelot)

This is how they rolled. So you had 3 factions. Or countries that had certain race types as part of their country. Each race started in their own country where they pursued the storyline and went about moving through that VAST game. I do mean it was VAST. There are places that could take 20+ minutes to get to by horse. 10+ if you flew by Wyvern.........

Anyway the point was that between each of the realms in the center of them all was a Field of Battle where there were keeps and things that you could occupy and the PvP rules were KOS. No out. No announcement. There was no such thing as griefing there either. You went into that area fully knowing that your arse was in enemy territory and behind enemy lines. Never had issues there with people getting all pissy pants over losses either.

Point being I am all for an arena style area with places to occupy and fight over. I love that (#2)! I do not go out looking for PvP but I would for sure participate in a FOB style area for funz!

SO DO IT! *NOD NOD*

Because it would be fun. The same reason we want new PrCs or dungeons. Not everyone wants to play the new PrCs or new dungeons, but for those that do it is fun and that is what it's for.

[Razzaband]

Alright so, the "wild west" idea is horrific as it brings up an array of problems that can be detrimental to the overall player base. This being that some people in general do not like pvp such as myself, griefing, pvp abuse, and leaps in logic for roleplay concerning death and injuries unless the server was made permadeath. This will also additionally hinder people from leveling when you have characters coming in and pvping them when they simply want to grind for xp. In addition maybe there should be guards patrolling the road so when you attack someone and npc can come and mop you up for being reckless. At least it will make it possible from going town to town. Lastly you have to consider players that can't even go into town, like my main who can only go into soubar and roaringshore ICly. So what then? Do I just play getting slaughtered every two seconds? Are other players just going to hide into towns and now I can't interact with them or they themselves can't travel anywhere since they will die taking a step out of safety?

Now as for the pvp areas themselves, you must take into consideration that either new areas are added which adds to lag for the entire server, or taking over already existing areas which will limit areas for players who don't want to or like to engage in pvp. Secondly rp wise, most characters would not go into the pvp open area because in a few days rumors would fly about of infamously dangerous areas that at the point of hearing it are bloodbaths. What rational character would walk into there except for I guess characters bloodthirsty for fighting? So the 'assassination' argument doesn't work at all with that in mind. Also what are you going to rp after dying n times, why does your character keep going back to get slaughtered? Soon enough the area will turn into either a desolate area that players don't go into or an area of lvl 30 powerbuilds fighting and griefing each other so this covers a very small percent of the player base. If you want to make the game 'more dangerous' go play a permadeath character then or maybe take death and injuries more seriously into your rp instead of shaking them off in an hour.

I overall agree with the suggestion of putting PVP open into your description or making some fight club group with players. But as you can see this will either add lag, or take away area(s) from the majority of players. Overall the open PvP areas are just selfish imo.

[Face]

Alright so, the "wild west" idea is horrific as it brings up an array of problems that can be detrimental to the overall player base. This being that some people in general do not like pvp such as myself, griefing, pvp abuse, and leaps in logic for roleplay concerning death and injuries unless the server was made permadeath. This will also additionally hinder people from leveling when you have characters coming in and pvping them when they simply want to grind for xp. In addition maybe there should be guards patrolling the road so when you attack someone and npc can come and mop you up for being reckless. At least it will make it possible from going town to town. Lastly you have to consider players that can't even go into town, like my main who can only go into soubar and roaringshore ICly. So what then? Do I just play getting slaughtered every two seconds? Are other players just going to hide into towns and now I can't interact with them or they themselves can't travel anywhere since they will die taking a step out of safety?

Now as for the pvp areas themselves, you must take into consideration that either new areas are added which adds to lag for the entire server, or taking over already existing areas which will limit areas for players who don't want to or like to engage in pvp. Secondly rp wise, most characters would not go into the pvp open area because in a few days rumors would fly about of infamously dangerous areas that at the point of hearing it are bloodbaths. What rational character would walk into there except for I guess characters bloodthirsty for fighting? So the 'assassination' argument doesn't work at all with that in mind. Also what are you going to rp after dying n times, why does your character keep going back to get slaughtered? Soon enough the area will turn into either a desolate area that players don't go into or an area of lvl 30 powerbuilds fighting and griefing each other so this covers a very small percent of the player base. If you want to make the game 'more dangerous' go play a permadeath character then or maybe take death and injuries more seriously into your rp instead of shaking them off in an hour.

I overall agree with the suggestion of putting PVP open into your description or making some fight club group with players. But as you can see this will either add lag, or take away area(s) from the majority of players. Overall the open PvP areas are just selfish imo.

Guild halls are not selfish then? (A open zone wil be open to all players a guild hall is not open to all)
Pve deaths happen so mutch more then pvp deaths. (How do we keep comming back from that)

[Cowbot]

I guess because I play on two monitors and in windowed mode using a text file is just easier for me, it literally takes me as long to find someone's name as it does to type their name. However, the suggestion of putting it in your examine seems like an excellent alternative solution.

I read all the posts related to wanting more danger, more meaningful death, more permastrikes, etc., but those are all off topic; this thread is about creating an open-PvP zone. I stand by my position that such a zone can be created for those who want it by voluntary opt-in, and it is totally unnecessary to make a zone dedicated to it.

But thank you for your polite disagreement aaron22. Your post saying that you appreciate civil dissent is what encouraged me to post at all. I usually avoid posting on the forums whenever possible.

The sense of danger you want is entirely possible to achieve right now, for yourself. If you want other people to be forced to endure that danger, that is where I'll have to disagree with you. I feel we should support multiple playstyles to the best of our ability.