BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

[yyj]

I don't think server economy should be a factor mainly because some people have very different incomes that vary way too much to be added as another variable to the equation.

The server economy is done for and trying to do anything to "fix" it right now feels like pouring gasoline into a campfire since it will affect new players/middle class more than it affects people who is already rich.

The loot rebalance succeeded in making looting more fun while not touching the economy issues at all.

[Tanlaus]

I don't think server economy should be a factor mainly because some people have very different incomes that vary way too much to be added as another variable to the equation.

The server economy is done for and trying to do anything to "fix" it right now feels like pouring gasoline into a campfire since it will affect new players/middle class more than it affects people who is already rich.

The loot rebalance succeeded in making looting more fun while not touching the economy issues at all.

I’m not suggesting anything to fix it. Just to not pour even more gasoline into the already blazing fire.

But this is a problem for all persistent game worlds, MMO or RP based. Infinite resources eventually does a number on all of them.

[gedweyignasia]

The loot rebalance succeeded in making looting more fun while not touching the economy issues at all.

I had some proposals for fixing the economy, but they'd require rebalancing the enemies to be suitable for +2 gear. And also the players would revolt when their items broke or couldn't be muled.

[yyj]

In the OC Neverwinter Nights 2 there are certain builds that would not go through the game even on easy difficulty, take for example a wizard with max Charisma, or something like that. Those kind of builds maybe would even die in the prologue of the game.

Sure that is an extreme example, but my point is that, this game is based on D&D loosely, and there's certain builds that will only work for a story mode, as in, always roleplaying, but would they need to be able to loot uber epic lootz and tons of gold? I don't know.

This would apply to most RPGs really that have any kind of combat.


And regarding the economy, it personally doesn't bother me if it's broken or not, because I am not affected negatively by other players having tons of gold or items.

[gedweyignasia]

And regarding the economy, it personally doesn't bother me if it's broken or not, because I am not affected negatively by other players having tons of gold or items.

The effect is indirect, but touches everyone--some much more than others. Content is (very slowly and continuously) balanced for the average player, so their gain is eventually your loss, even when it doesn't feel that way. We all have to keep up with the inflation.

[DaloLorn]

Unfortunately, YYJ is right. The economy and item balance cannot be fixed by any reasonable measure. There are only the unreasonable:

• Hyperinflation (of both gold and item stats). Crank everything up until the obscene wealth and power of the "1%" is something you can get within a day of character creation - hundreds of thousands of gold becoming functionally equivalent to the 1k you start with, Viperblades and such items becoming the server equivalent of a +1 item. Then build out the new +2/+3/+4 items from there, and warp the economy around the new baseline you just set.
  
  MMOs can do this much more elegantly, by more directly invalidating old items/currency, but this is our only means of achieving that without actively deleting things. It's not a great idea, but it reduces the odds of player backlash, so it at least has that going for it.
• Rebalance the server downwards, accompanied by a vault wipe. There will be player backlash. There will be players leaving. The server is probably too old and too established to survive a full wipe.
  
  In my experience, those who argue that new (or returning) players will join the server to make up for it have an unfortunate tendency of glossing over the painful and possibly fatal interlude between the mass exodus and the replacement players hearing about how great BG's becoming. Some will stay, sure, but our population is already dangerously low. If even we lose even half of them, it could take months, even years of effort by the surviving playerbase for the server to come back from its "ghost town" stage.
• Rebalance the server downwards, but use more finely targeted mechanisms to neutralize the inevitable statistical outliers. Reduce their stored gold to 1% on first login. Prevent them from leaving the Nexus with legacy items, or convert them to something more acceptable when they do leave the Nexus. (I would caution against simply deleting/editing the items on login. Some of these items may be closely tied to their characters, either because of DM/player plots surrounding their acquisition, or because of how long they've been actively used by them.)
  
  This will still result in backlash, it will require a lot of extra dev work, and the item removal/conversion requirement will likely flood the DMs' inboxes with conversion requests for those items that Mystra couldn't automatically process. However, aside from the hyperinflation option, I suspect this is the only approach that doesn't result in a mass exodus from the server.

[YYA]

Or you just accept that some characters are more powerful, some players are more wealthy, and you just add those easy mode areas and the old players lose absolutely nothing, while anyone who starts from scratch or with some role-play gimmick build could make do in the easy mode areas of the server. A place to go when there is no one else online, and all of a sudden you can form up parties as people come to the same area, and then you can explore the far more difficult areas of the server.

I am sure that the DMs already have some river maps that could be just used as temporary placeholders to give it a try.

[DaloLorn]

Or you just accept that some characters are more powerful, some players are more wealthy, and you just add those easy mode areas and the old players lose absolutely nothing, while anyone who starts from scratch or with some role-play gimmick build could make do in the easy mode areas of the server. A place to go when there is no one else online, and all of a sudden you can form up parties as people come to the same area, and then you can explore the far more difficult areas of the server.

I am sure that the DMs already have some river maps that could be just used as temporary placeholders to give it a try.

It's a bandaid, and one of dubious effectiveness. Should we try it? Probably. But will it fix the underlying issues? Not a chance.

[EasternCheesE]

I honestly feel like we just need alternative source of gold and XP aside from grinding:
1) Professions (be it some low risk-low reward and higher risk-higher reward ones). Be it lumberjack or miner or herbalist or smith or even sailor. Just some activity a PC can do in Solo that is not directly related to mob grinding or magic casting.
2) Crafting (not in terms of making +4 keen vamp regen 3 massive crits 10 spoon, but in terms of processing ore into ingots and making mundane stuff so it can be sold to vendors). It falls into smithing, tailoring, brewing (not magic brews though, and it looks like a good combo with professions) and so on. Thus, players not only can make gold/XP without leaving safe area (pretty low gold/xp), but they can also use such ingots and mundane items in RP.
3) More dynamic encounter system where DMs/Devs can claim and set up "Gnolls invade cloakwood" events for a week or a day without needing area builder to alter the area and update server.
4) Questing rework with quest chains, quests related to crafting/professions and so on.

Instead of making PvE easier, i'd honestly love to see a way to get gold/xp without PvE (or minimum PvE) while adventuring remains a high risk high reward experience.

[Ghost]

3) More dynamic encounter system where DMs/Devs can claim and set up "Gnolls invade cloakwood" events for a week or a day without needing area builder to alter the area and update server.

We've just added a tool (thank you Rhifox and khaevil) that will help in this regard, but it will still require a few button clicks every reset.

I have to teach the other DMs how to use it still (although it is pretty simple, so they may figure it out on their own).

[DaloLorn]

I honestly feel like we just need alternative source of gold and XP aside from grinding:
1) Professions (be it some low risk-low reward and higher risk-higher reward ones). Be it lumberjack or miner or herbalist or smith or even sailor. Just some activity a PC can do in Solo that is not directly related to mob grinding or magic casting.
2) Crafting (not in terms of making +4 keen vamp regen 3 massive crits 10 spoon, but in terms of processing ore into ingots and making mundane stuff so it can be sold to vendors). It falls into smithing, tailoring, brewing (not magic brews though, and it looks like a good combo with professions) and so on. Thus, players not only can make gold/XP without leaving safe area (pretty low gold/xp), but they can also use such ingots and mundane items in RP.
3) More dynamic encounter system where DMs/Devs can claim and set up "Gnolls invade cloakwood" events for a week or a day without needing area builder to alter the area and update server.
4) Questing rework with quest chains, quests related to crafting/professions and so on.

Instead of making PvE easier, i'd honestly love to see a way to get gold/xp without PvE (or minimum PvE) while adventuring remains a high risk high reward experience.

I quite like that idea, with a few caveats:

• Crafting could also be used as an alternative source of items. I'm sure the possible implementations are numerous, but the one example I'm personally familiar with (Ravenloft again, of course ) has it such that crafted items can be either a reliable means of obtaining certain effects (for instance, enchanting adamantine weapons for a guaranteed, undispellable +3 EB with extra positive damage on a server where +1 items aren't always without tradeoffs - if they even exist for a given item type - or easy to find, and +2 items are nearly nonexistent), or the best items for some classes.
  
  Some item types (jewelry, whips, guns) are uncraftable, some enchanted items still don't measure up to looted counterparts in a given context (for instance, there's a boot material that can get you up to +4 MS or something when enchanted, in addition to the +1 Dodge from being enchanted boots, but the absolute best sneak boots have a whopping +10 MS), and some more exotic effects or combinations of effects can't be found outside the loot table... but many a martial character has preferred to enlist the services of a good smith and gilder rather than rely on looted equipment. (Mind you, virtually all endgame items in Ravenloft are either looted or crafted. They don't do epic shops like we do.)
• Crafting should, IMO, not be tied to combat XP, nor should it depend exclusively on feats/classes. You know people are liable to grind up Master Alchemists via RCR if we try to remove elixirs from Mudd's.
• PvE is currently a minimal-risk, mediocre-reward experience. The risk does go up if you are forced to solo (as a disturbingly large section of the population seem to be), but the rewards tend to be pitiful unless you get very lucky and loot something worth auctioning off to another player. (Or something worth using for yourself.) Even XP gains are mediocre unless you start running in circles through [INSERT PREFERRED CR-APPROPRIATE GRINDING MAP].
  
  If possible, I would increase the risk somewhat (and scale it more strongly to party size!), and also increase the likelihood that the rewards will be worth the risk. Better average XP per normal dungeon run, limited possibility of blindly circling between spawn points, and better average loot would all be things for which I would gladly accept constraints on how often I can effectively get any of that. (... Let's face it, I've gotten too sick of grinding to even bother soloing for XP/loot in the first place.)

[EasternCheesE]

Hidden: show

I honestly feel like we just need alternative source of gold and XP aside from grinding:
1) Professions (be it some low risk-low reward and higher risk-higher reward ones). Be it lumberjack or miner or herbalist or smith or even sailor. Just some activity a PC can do in Solo that is not directly related to mob grinding or magic casting.
2) Crafting (not in terms of making +4 keen vamp regen 3 massive crits 10 spoon, but in terms of processing ore into ingots and making mundane stuff so it can be sold to vendors). It falls into smithing, tailoring, brewing (not magic brews though, and it looks like a good combo with professions) and so on. Thus, players not only can make gold/XP without leaving safe area (pretty low gold/xp), but they can also use such ingots and mundane items in RP.
3) More dynamic encounter system where DMs/Devs can claim and set up "Gnolls invade cloakwood" events for a week or a day without needing area builder to alter the area and update server.
4) Questing rework with quest chains, quests related to crafting/professions and so on.

Instead of making PvE easier, i'd honestly love to see a way to get gold/xp without PvE (or minimum PvE) while adventuring remains a high risk high reward experience.

I quite like that idea, with a few caveats:

• Crafting could also be used as an alternative source of items. I'm sure the possible implementations are numerous, but the one example I'm personally familiar with (Ravenloft again, of course ) has it such that crafted items can be either a reliable means of obtaining certain effects (for instance, enchanting adamantine weapons for a guaranteed, undispellable +3 EB with extra positive damage on a server where +1 items aren't always without tradeoffs - if they even exist for a given item type - or easy to find, and +2 items are nearly nonexistent), or the best items for some classes.
  
  Some item types (jewelry, whips, guns) are uncraftable, some enchanted items still don't measure up to looted counterparts in a given context (for instance, there's a boot material that can get you up to +4 MS or something when enchanted, in addition to the +1 Dodge from being enchanted boots, but the absolute best sneak boots have a whopping +10 MS), and some more exotic effects or combinations of effects can't be found outside the loot table... but many a martial character has preferred to enlist the services of a good smith and gilder rather than rely on looted equipment. (Mind you, virtually all endgame items in Ravenloft are either looted or crafted. They don't do epic shops like we do.)
• Crafting should, IMO, not be tied to combat XP, nor should it depend exclusively on feats/classes. You know people are liable to grind up Master Alchemists via RCR if we try to remove elixirs from Mudd's.
• PvE is currently a minimal-risk, mediocre-reward experience. The risk does go up if you are forced to solo (as a disturbingly large section of the population seem to be), but the rewards tend to be pitiful unless you get very lucky and loot something worth auctioning off to another player. (Or something worth using for yourself.) Even XP gains are mediocre unless you start running in circles through [INSERT PREFERRED CR-APPROPRIATE GRINDING MAP].
  
  If possible, I would increase the risk somewhat (and scale it more strongly to party size!), and also increase the likelihood that the rewards will be worth the risk. Better average XP per normal dungeon run, limited possibility of blindly circling between spawn points, and better average loot would all be things for which I would gladly accept constraints on how often I can effectively get any of that. (... Let's face it, I've gotten too sick of grinding to even bother soloing for XP/loot in the first place.)

1) Well, crafting can be anything. Though, so called "RP" crafting doesn't actually change anything in loot/gear balance while offering people more "tangible" things to RP with and the process they do to acquire such "tangible" things. For sake of balance and not shaking our bog, my suggestion doesn't touch loot at all with limiting crafting to only non-combat usable items. This, sure, can be changed in future if DMs/Devs/Admins decide so while already having tested and checked non-combat crafting.

2) Everything is craftable if Devs want to with one way or another. Be it "Gem shaping tool" dialogue or direct process that takes rounds, depends, but it's possible.

3) Well, we don't have any other XP bars that offer players new feats and skills, thus what should we tie crafting XP to? In general, it's not combat XP, it's overall PC XP, but on this server, there are only two reliable ways to get this xp: combat or RP conversations.

4) PvE is hugely related on build and archetype. Some powerbuilds of N archetype (by powerbuild i mean someone get, say "agile tank archetype" then they squeeze maximum they can to make it viable) can't solo fire giants, some rogue/wizard split (which takes worst from both worlds) can solo Balor with 0 consumables used (and without changing his regular spellbook) and then die to a group of 3 high-level mobs in 2 rounds and so on. There are quite too many options to say "PvE" is low-risk. It's quite low risk for high CON, DR or skyhigh AC PCs, for everyone else, without spells or UMD, it's dangerous. Try Fighter 30 and see how you perform in Graypeaks unbuffed. So, there are people who either can't build good enough and people who refuse to build for fight focusing on RP skills and feats. And there are certain archetypes who are historically performing badly on BGTSCC, like DC casters or any blaster (except for warlock, obviously), please account them too.

My own idea is not about "Make everyone be able to solo areas of 3 CR lower than their PC level is" but "Make it so adventuring is high risk high reward which requires a dedicated adventurer who spends their RP time and level ups to improve their combat skills and survivability". Then, to make sure everyone can have their share of gold and XP, elaborate professions, crafting or whatever so everyone can spend their Solo time with something else then lootruns.

[DaloLorn]

Hidden: show

I honestly feel like we just need alternative source of gold and XP aside from grinding:
1) Professions (be it some low risk-low reward and higher risk-higher reward ones). Be it lumberjack or miner or herbalist or smith or even sailor. Just some activity a PC can do in Solo that is not directly related to mob grinding or magic casting.
2) Crafting (not in terms of making +4 keen vamp regen 3 massive crits 10 spoon, but in terms of processing ore into ingots and making mundane stuff so it can be sold to vendors). It falls into smithing, tailoring, brewing (not magic brews though, and it looks like a good combo with professions) and so on. Thus, players not only can make gold/XP without leaving safe area (pretty low gold/xp), but they can also use such ingots and mundane items in RP.
3) More dynamic encounter system where DMs/Devs can claim and set up "Gnolls invade cloakwood" events for a week or a day without needing area builder to alter the area and update server.
4) Questing rework with quest chains, quests related to crafting/professions and so on.

Instead of making PvE easier, i'd honestly love to see a way to get gold/xp without PvE (or minimum PvE) while adventuring remains a high risk high reward experience.

I quite like that idea, with a few caveats:

• Crafting could also be used as an alternative source of items. I'm sure the possible implementations are numerous, but the one example I'm personally familiar with (Ravenloft again, of course ) has it such that crafted items can be either a reliable means of obtaining certain effects (for instance, enchanting adamantine weapons for a guaranteed, undispellable +3 EB with extra positive damage on a server where +1 items aren't always without tradeoffs - if they even exist for a given item type - or easy to find, and +2 items are nearly nonexistent), or the best items for some classes.
  
  Some item types (jewelry, whips, guns) are uncraftable, some enchanted items still don't measure up to looted counterparts in a given context (for instance, there's a boot material that can get you up to +4 MS or something when enchanted, in addition to the +1 Dodge from being enchanted boots, but the absolute best sneak boots have a whopping +10 MS), and some more exotic effects or combinations of effects can't be found outside the loot table... but many a martial character has preferred to enlist the services of a good smith and gilder rather than rely on looted equipment. (Mind you, virtually all endgame items in Ravenloft are either looted or crafted. They don't do epic shops like we do.)
• Crafting should, IMO, not be tied to combat XP, nor should it depend exclusively on feats/classes. You know people are liable to grind up Master Alchemists via RCR if we try to remove elixirs from Mudd's.
• PvE is currently a minimal-risk, mediocre-reward experience. The risk does go up if you are forced to solo (as a disturbingly large section of the population seem to be), but the rewards tend to be pitiful unless you get very lucky and loot something worth auctioning off to another player. (Or something worth using for yourself.) Even XP gains are mediocre unless you start running in circles through [INSERT PREFERRED CR-APPROPRIATE GRINDING MAP].
  
  If possible, I would increase the risk somewhat (and scale it more strongly to party size!), and also increase the likelihood that the rewards will be worth the risk. Better average XP per normal dungeon run, limited possibility of blindly circling between spawn points, and better average loot would all be things for which I would gladly accept constraints on how often I can effectively get any of that. (... Let's face it, I've gotten too sick of grinding to even bother soloing for XP/loot in the first place.)

1) Well, crafting can be anything. Though, so called "RP" crafting doesn't actually change anything in loot/gear balance while offering people more "tangible" things to RP with and the process they do to acquire such "tangible" things. For sake of balance and not shaking our bog, my suggestion doesn't touch loot at all with limiting crafting to only non-combat usable items. This, sure, can be changed in future if DMs/Devs/Admins decide so while already having tested and checked non-combat crafting.

3) Well, we don't have any other XP bars that offer players new feats and skills, thus what should we tie crafting XP to? In general, it's not combat XP, it's overall PC XP, but on this server, there are only two reliable ways to get this xp: combat or RP conversations.

If it is decided that crafting should produce gameplay-affecting items, those items should not be attainable by leveling a fighter to 30 and RCRing them into a crafter. That's my primary concern.

4) PvE is hugely related on build and archetype. Some powerbuilds of N archetype (by powerbuild i mean someone get, say "agile tank archetype" then they squeeze maximum they can to make it viable) can't solo fire giants, some rogue/wizard split (which takes worst from both worlds) can solo Balor with 0 consumables used (and without changing his regular spellbook) and then die to a group of 3 high-level mobs in 2 rounds and so on. There are quite too many options to say "PvE" is low-risk. It's quite low risk for high CON, DR or skyhigh AC PCs, for everyone else, without spells or UMD, it's dangerous. Try Fighter 30 and see how you perform in Graypeaks unbuffed. So, there are people who either can't build good enough and people who refuse to build for fight focusing on RP skills and feats. And there are certain archetypes who are historically performing badly on BGTSCC, like DC casters or any blaster (except for warlock, obviously), please account them too.

My own idea is not about "Make everyone be able to solo areas of 3 CR lower than their PC level is" but "Make it so adventuring is high risk high reward which requires a dedicated adventurer who spends their RP time and level ups to improve their combat skills and survivability". Then, to make sure everyone can have their share of gold and XP, elaborate professions, crafting or whatever so everyone can spend their Solo time with something else then lootruns.

It's a minimal-risk proposition if you party up, or if you min-max an already-overperforming archetype. The former is currently working as designed; the latter is beyond the scope of the current branch of this thread. (Though I would say it is absolutely within the scope of the thread as a whole, and should be addressed somehow.) And in either case, the average rewards are mediocre at most. Hence: minimal-risk, mediocre-reward.

[YYA]

If someone wants to add these minigames to earn fishing experience, etc, go ahead... I do not mind if those exist in game. But that said, I thought we were playing D&D here, not Minecraft.

Which is why I circle back to the 'Easy Mode Areas' -- because those would offer things of adventure, battles won, and a chance to meet other adventurers.

[YYA]

In the OC Neverwinter Nights 2 there are certain builds that would not go through the game even on easy difficulty, take for example a wizard with max Charisma, or something like that. Those kind of builds maybe would even die in the prologue of the game.

NWN2 forces a spellcasting class to take at least 11 in the primary spellcasting attribute. Thus a Wizard, who spends all his level ups in Charisma, can actually survive because he is still capable of casting spells, and the game actually drops +X intelligence items fairly often. Not to mention that you would eventually be able to craft these items yourself, or through the many NPC the game offers as your companions. And finally, if you continue to MoTB, you could just craft yourself a +8 Intelligence item.

Not to mention that since the enemies in default campaigns of NWN2 are not BGTSCC adjusted, they are relatively easy to defeat even with a Wizard with just a base 11 Intelligence.