The Bladesinger PRC

[Valefort]

Now my question has to be if the frost mage PRC makes the freezing field go through cold immune.

Yep.

[mrm3ntalist]

Actually I do not feel this PRC will be some OP Class you never seen before. You seen the base class Favored Soul =P

It wont be anywhere near the FS.

I actually don't really like looking at all these caster builds, im kinda feeling its been a while sense ive seen a non casting prc come along. Everything on the server has lately felt "buff to survive" which hasn't really struck much my fancy.

Feel free to suggest one

I do feel this PRC is really good though and im only concerned about the PVP issue which I do not think you have taken seriously enough yet. I do feel a pause should be given and thought towards PVP instead of a wait and see action. Considering a pvp fix by admission of many wouldn't hurt the class in pve at all. No one is gonna put on hit Wail or Finger for pve.

What is the pvp issue? Rolling one at that "spell-saved-on-the-sword" ability?

I still would like to see you address some other issues of other classes who can not achieve any where near these numbers of fix their glitches. ((I.e. Uncanny dodge still broken...))

Uncanny dodge is fixed. Feel free to post any other glitches that you think need fixing.

[Mallore]

Actually I do not feel this PRC will be some OP Class you never seen before. You seen the base class Favored Soul =P

It wont be anywhere near the FS.

I actually don't really like looking at all these caster builds, im kinda feeling its been a while sense ive seen a non casting prc come along. Everything on the server has lately felt "buff to survive" which hasn't really struck much my fancy.

Feel free to suggest one

I do feel this PRC is really good though and im only concerned about the PVP issue which I do not think you have taken seriously enough yet. I do feel a pause should be given and thought towards PVP instead of a wait and see action. Considering a pvp fix by admission of many wouldn't hurt the class in pve at all. No one is gonna put on hit Wail or Finger for pve.

What is the pvp issue? Rolling one at that "spell-saved-on-the-sword" ability?

I still would like to see you address some other issues of other classes who can not achieve any where near these numbers of fix their glitches. ((I.e. Uncanny dodge still broken...))

Uncanny dodge is fixed. Feel free to post any other glitches that you think need fixing.

I will be honest, I have done suggestions before and seen nothing come of it other then attacks. I even suggested things like adding langauge as a skill per PNP, or just the actual book description for search which will have no PVE impact and people got angry. I am in that group of disheartened people who might feel sort of sidelined. I would gladly suggest a non casting PRC in the future, but the above examples of my history regarding suggestions has left a bad taste.

As for PVP, yes rolling a one will kill you, this does make the blade a Vorpal Weapon. Not all classes can achive +15 on will or fort be which ever one you want. so it is more like you fail on a higher save roll and needing a 10 even when you have a +18 to a save roll.

I would further stress the PVP issue because of restraints this server put on getting Death Ward items. By the time you Cast death ward, give a player their rp out and find a place to hunt them your ward can wear off. Unlike if your a caster and put it on yourself. I could go on about PVP but this should be a seperate topic. This does not include a bladesingers alpha hit with Sword hit damage, Vamp Feast, sword hit damage .. thats a lot of damage.


When was Uncanny Dodge fixed? As of last month it was not, a stag beattle walked up to me and hit me... it does not have 23 rogue levels =P

[mrm3ntalist]

I will be honest, I have done suggestions before and seen nothing come of it other then attacks. I even suggested things like adding langauge as a skill per PNP, or just the actual book description for search which will have no PVE impact and people got angry. I am in that group of disheartened people who might feel sort of sidelined. I would gladly suggest a non casting PRC in the future, but the above examples of my history regarding suggestions has left a bad taste.

I can understand being disheartened. I see you are very passionate about this game. That can be a good and a bad thing ( mostly good for me ). When pushing too much for something and argue too much can make others angry. Beleive me, i know.

However, if a suggestion is made about an interesting PRC, at the very least it will be looked at.

As for PVP, yes rolling a one will kill you, this does make the blade a Vorpal Weapon. Not all classes can achive +15 on will or fort be which ever one you want. so it is more like you fail on a higher save roll and needing a 10 even when you have a +18 to a save roll.

There are a lot one can say about this. A lot of counters, a lot of ways to do something better than the "spell-on-the-sword" ability etc. It is nowhere near a vorpal sword that you descibe. For me, it is another way of casting a spell. Even though it is a new mechanic that we havent seen in action and we should always be careful, I feel this ability is nothing to worry about.

I would further stress the PVP issue because of restraints this server put on getting Death Ward items. By the time you Cast death ward, give a player their rp out and find a place to hunt them your ward can wear off. Unlike if your a caster and put it on yourself. I could go on about PVP but this should be a seperate topic. This does not include a bladesingers alpha hit with Sword hit damage, Vamp Feast, sword hit damage .. thats a lot of damage.

Again, the same as the previous post. This needs a thread on its own.

When was Uncanny Dodge fixed? As of last month it was not, a stag beattle walked up to me and hit me... it does not have 23 rogue levels =P

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Uncanny_Dodge - i think you confuse the feats?

[Tantive]

The use of truly useful necromantic spells on the sword will be a drow thing likely. They care less for use of death descriptor or evil attacks.

[Mallore]

I feel some of the counters to this pvp situation are not available to all classes if not most. I myself know that if I come out of stealth to drop a blade singer it will not happen because only my first four hits are sa damage and basic buffs put them over 200 hp. Even though all my hits should be sa till they act as they should be treated as flat footed.

Instead because as the game is scripted they will get to auto attack me back with the camped death spell in the sword. Which is harder for say most rogue and assisassn to save against then other spells.

Durning that moment of panic confusion a player may experience this blade power has given them an auto out and possibly instant kill for camping the death spell in the sword. Someone might say is it fair for the rogue to be fixed to drop the blade singer In one round? I suppose the answer is yes considering a death spell drops the rogue in less then a round.

It is alpha struck situations like this I feel is just one of many pvp situations this power is not correctly balanced for.



In regards to broken feat uncanny dodge. I also have the improved version as well but that didn't stop the stag Beatle from walking up and actually hitting me. I did not receive my dex bonus to Ac. I have screen shots of the combat log. This has happen with other creatures too.

[Mallore]

The use of truly useful necromantic spells on the sword will be a drow thing likely. They care less for use of death descriptor or evil attacks.

Saying it and the reality are two different things. There is nothing to stop a "good elf" from putting Vamperic Feast or Finger of Death in their swords.

for nothing has stopped these characters from using these spells already as regular casting.

[Valefort]

If you're an assassin attacking a bladesinger why aren't you protecting yourself if you know about the possibility of a sword being charged with a spell ? Are you completely suicidal ?

And if you attack without knowing the abilities of your target same story , being reckless has drawbacks.

Also it's not about death spells, there are tons of arcane spells than can put a rogue out of commision if he is just trying his luck. Hell even a color spray charged on the sword can stun him if he's not lucky.

[chad878262]

Shouldn't an Assassin be attacking from stealth? And if they attack from stealth against an opponent not engaged in combat don't they get death attack? Isn't death attack essentially save or die, when it comes down to it? I mean, if you roll a 1, or have low fortitude saves, with no Steadfast you are paralyzed and each subsequent attack is then a sneak attack, so you'll be dead, really fast...Unless the assassin leaves you as a statue and walks off...

I think some of these comments are a little overboard. If we can agree that the BladeSinger is about the same power as a DragonSlayer build then we are about where we should be. If someone truly believes this is going to put up a fight against a Favored Soul, Bard, Dragon Druid, Dwarven Defender, CON Lock or any of the real top tier builds then I would really like to hear how. I see this build, much like Dragon Slayer, being on about the same level as a Paladin. It has some better defense, but not as good offense so it is different, but well balanced with some neat perks.

Once it is available I'm going to test it out in game, I'm sure other QC members will also and if any of us solo the white with it there will be some issues. I don't see that as even a remote possibility, but if it happens we'll address it.

There is an Orc PRC thread right now with a few Warrior type PRC's being suggested, I know others have been suggested in the past and these are good discussions to continue, but this PRC, along with Mystic Theurge has been one of the most requested PRC's I can recall since joining this server. As we've discussed, MT has some difficulties with balancing, but this one we have come up with what we believe will be fun to play and have some solid performing abilities. It won't be OP, it's not a top tier build choice, but it's certainly viable to solo the majority of the content if built right (which most builds can do, if built right).

[Aspect of Sorrow]

There is nothing to stop a "good elf" from putting Vamperic Feast or Finger of Death in their swords.

http://www.nwnlexicon.com/index.php?tit ... ntGoodEvil

[Mallore]

If you're an assassin attacking a bladesinger why aren't you protecting yourself if you know about the possibility of a sword being charged with a spell ? Are you completely suicidal ?

And if you attack without knowing the abilities of your target same story , being reckless has drawbacks.

Also it's not about death spells, there are tons of arcane spells than can put a rogue out of commision if he is just trying his luck. Hell even a color spray charged on the sword can stun him if he's not lucky.

This is where I start to get frustrated, as I give example after example but feel I'm stuck in a circle. As I explained this server has a lack readiness of Death Ward, for some reasons we have a strange and steep restriction on its availability out side of the class's who can produce it.

The problem Valfort is that after casting the ward upon your self at the level you can acquire it, then go through the rp hoops, positioning and waiting to make your strike the ward has at this point fallen off. When cast from scroll or wand the duration isn't there to make it practical and often it falls off before you get to the target.

While yes a color spray would be bad luck in your case it is not an instant death.

I personally do not roll Assissan as the darn class is suppose to be evil only. It's rp doesn't fit. Even then if I had the death attack it's save able by anything but a one against this prc.

Though why all the attacks on the target where not sa damage is flabbergasting. As they should be remaining flat footed till their action. So instead this prc has a built in auto defense system if you load the blade.

I hope this clarifies the issue a bit. It's frustrating when being a player your yelled at "be prepared" but this realm through design has nerfed, hampered or avoided "prepare" with a series of rules, fixes and or inattentive notice. There is little difference from "be prepared" and "L2p".

[Mallore]

Shouldn't an Assassin be attacking from stealth? And if they attack from stealth against an opponent not engaged in combat don't they get death attack? Isn't death attack essentially save or die, when it comes down to it? I mean, if you roll a 1, or have low fortitude saves, with no Steadfast you are paralyzed and each subsequent attack is then a sneak attack, so you'll be dead, really fast...Unless the assassin leaves you as a statue and walks off...

I think some of these comments are a little overboard. If we can agree that the BladeSinger is about the same power as a DragonSlayer build then we are about where we should be. If someone truly believes this is going to put up a fight against a Favored Soul, Bard, Dragon Druid, Dwarven Defender, CON Lock or any of the real top tier builds then I would really like to hear how. I see this build, much like Dragon Slayer, being on about the same level as a Paladin. It has some better defense, but not as good offense so it is different, but well balanced with some neat perks.

Once it is available I'm going to test it out in game, I'm sure other QC members will also and if any of us solo the white with it there will be some issues. I don't see that as even a remote possibility, but if it happens we'll address it.

There is an Orc PRC thread right now with a few Warrior type PRC's being suggested, I know others have been suggested in the past and these are good discussions to continue, but this PRC, along with Mystic Theurge has been one of the most requested PRC's I can recall since joining this server. As we've discussed, MT has some difficulties with balancing, but this one we have come up with what we believe will be fun to play and have some solid performing abilities. It won't be OP, it's not a top tier build choice, but it's certainly viable to solo the majority of the content if built right (which most builds can do, if built right).

Chad the question first should be is why isn't all the attacks SA damage? Once again not everyone chooses Assissan. It's kinda annoying that is the only choice for some builds, or more over for some style of play. It would be wonderful to have some more non caster prcs.

While I do not think this class is op. I do think it has one flaw in the pvp aspect and everyone seams to disagree so be it. Though I guess I will take a page from M3nt's book and in four months say "told you so".

This class will be a must to take with you on white dragon hunts though. That freezing field will help you big time. As she's not gonna be immune to its affect. Every deduction to Ac helps and that slow affect will really come in handy.

Though you are right it will crush most of the content and be fun doing it but that is because it had the buffs to get it done. We built this server as a buff or die realm.

Though while prcs may get some love it is sad to play a new non caster prc you have to be an orc.

In the end how many builds do not have spell books on BG????? How many on the server right now don't have a spell boon that are minimum level 20? Have we stopped and ask ourselves about this?

So yes this is a nice class. But it's still pvp imbalanced.

[Mallore]

There is nothing to stop a "good elf" from putting Vamperic Feast or Finger of Death in their swords.

http://www.nwnlexicon.com/index.php?tit ... ntGoodEvil

Are we going to put this on evil spells?

[Tantive]

If we can agree that the BladeSinger is about the same power as a DragonSlayer build then we are about where we should be.

I have to point out that dragonslayer has Arcane, Divine and Invocation progression, blackguards and assassins progression. It has much more flexibility in use, its limited requirement for feats, and it is useful for so many dips here and there. Its not even used for the lore its supposed to be used.

There is little flexibility in choice with the Bladesinger prc in your build, that cannot be done better another way. It has to follow a strict few classes, and its pinned to a corner in such a way that diverting from the optimal choices will severely hamper its performance.

Any bladesinger that plays for the lore is going to go for lvl 10 without exception.

So when you say bladesinger sits in the same power as a dragonslayer build, a build thats useful at almost any level, and is used as a filler class too - that does not inspire much confidence in the comparison.

[chad878262]

Chad the question first should be is why isn't all the attacks SA damage?

Because the base code of nwn2 only grants sneak attacks for the first flurry, not the full round. Not sure what you want done here, but this isn't a BGtSCC thing, it's an engine thing.

Once again not everyone chooses Assissan. It's kinda annoying that is the only choice for some builds, or more over for some style of play. It would be wonderful to have some more non caster prcs.

This has been stated before, but the reason "Assassin" doesn't require evil alignment is because the avenger class is the exact same set of abilities, but for good guys. Rather than implement multiple prc's the decision was made to just allow any alignment for assassin. Now, I wasn't around when that decision was made, but also don't see the issue with it.

This class will be a must to take with you on white dragon hunts though. That freezing field will help you big time.

You know this isn't true. You need a bard and a favored soul and you can toast the white. This thing won't do anything those two can't do better. Out can be a nice addition to any party, but "must take" isn't even close to the case.

In the end how many builds do not have spell books on BG????? How many on the server right now don't have a spell boon that are minimum level 20? Have we stopped and ask ourselves about this?

Come up with non-casting classes and submit them. Unfortunately 3.5 is riddled with PRCs that get some casting and a lot of players enjoy them. However, I don't think anyone would disagree that we could use some new non-casting classes.

@Tantive, QC does not consider lore or RP, that is for the DMs and is not in our purview. I'm well aware of the various sub-uses for dragon slayer, but that does not make any of what I said less accurate, strictly from a character building point of view.