Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2021)

[Steve]

I think the backstory is missing here: MotLD was broken from its initial implementation. It’s even easy to see that by the fact when it came online, no one even knew what it really did, good or bad (maybe better to say balanced or unbalanced).

Thus, it was a broken kit that shouldn’t have been released in the first place.

As well, thank the lord Ao FOR powerbuilders! They essentially work out the imbalances FOR the community, regardless if unintentional. But at the end of the day, it IS beneficial to disallow through “nerfing” those mechanics that are used to manipulate IC RP.

Building for max power is great—it’s fun and it created community between players who share the interest, as well, does help those players that cannot do it themselves. That said, THE GAME shouldn’t be about who has the most pwning build, so that RP can be dictated.

And THAT, imho, is why some things need to be balanced and get nerfed.

[EasternCheesE]

Just a small note to those who managed to read that message full of hasty emotional things i wrote and then deleted. My apologies.
I will look at this tomorrow, when i can think more clearly. I had a bad day today and i just should stay away from tough discussions happening before i say more things i am going to regret about.

[MrSmith]

Currently, when new MotLD is live, thus all the exploits of old MotLD are not available, lemme share you a dozen of info how it was vs how it should have been:
1) MotLD had an AC bug that effectively turned it's 3 AC into 6 AC permanently. Double AC bug. Moreover, if someone just relogged/crossed server, they got triple AC bug. Yup. That 3 -> 9 AC. A bit more about it. Monk AC (wis and monk) are untyped AC. Means, it doesn't get removed on both sneak attack and RTA. MotLD had it's ac set to exactly same type, which meant, monk's AC (assuming monk 30 and 30 wis) could never under any circumstances go below 10 + 10 + 6 + 6/9 = 32/35 AC, no matter the attack source.

As of several days ago, I had a M16/MoTLD4/SD5 character experience a +1AC increase when crossing over server lines. The AC increase never exceeded +1 nor was it permanent. It came and went. What I wanted to comment about though is the notion that MoTLD stops at 10 levels. It doesn’t. In fact, the Wiki explains https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... Class_Kit) progress in Deathguard and Macabre Experiments can be continued after level 10. Accordingly, a traditional M16/MoTLD14 build will actually receive +4 AC from Macabre Experiments. Before anyone gets overly excited about how “OP” monk’s AC/builds are… I engaged Chad# last November asking him whether anyone had QC’d Monk or MoTLD builds because my monk build was taking way too much damage. Here is what he shared, “What I found recently in MotLD testing was that in that first round AC would be like over 20 points lower, which I theorize is due to the first round considering him flat footed on those occasions since for purposes of my test build, he was a M16/MotLD14 with 30 WIS and 18 DEX so 10 + 4 + 6 (m30) + 3 (Tumble) + 4 (dodge) = 27 AC lost.” So, while +9 Natural AC elixir may seem OP, an argument can be made it’s still inadequate in many cases to overcome the scripted deficiencies baked into the base class.

2) While MotLD stated that it doesn't progress monk flurry, fists etc, in fact, it did, thus, taking monk 5/ motld 10/ then monk 1 would have given everything monk 16 should get. MotLD did only not give those features, but it still was counted towards requirements for them, so they were received right the next monk level one takes. So, having "monk 5/motld 10/ monk 5 again /some PRC 10" shouldn't have been giving people anything that monk >10 should have got. Surely, it's not an issue for pure monk/motld, since they'd have monk 20 anyway.

Citing the same wiki page, its true Long Death Monk substitution levels do not progress the monk flurry and ki-fist feats. I have made and RCR’d a half dozen monk variant builds – in my personal experience –flurry, greater flurry, lawful/adamantine was never given unless you had the requisite level of Monk levels. What I understand from the quote above is that the number of levels is not as important as the sequence of levels. If this is the case, then I completely understand the staff's actions. Candidly, you all had no choice.

While these are just two, we can see how extra 6 AC and not locking anything served making good balanced class into "My PvP machine". Guys, you really got your expectations set very high, that's why you feel it was nerfed badly. But i just ran around with my QC monk. It's different now. And it's way more how it should have been, you just compare to broken OP kit you had for long and there is no blame on you upon that.

Insightful Strike Monks were already PvP Machines. Stunning Fist DC [10 + 15 + Wis Modifier] = 35 - 40 Fortitude Save. Fortunately, there is nothing to see here. No one has ever died from a Stunning Fist.

Just, please, if you want things changed and don't like the update, try to run around with it, look unbiased, give us pros and cons. If you don't like g. flurry being removed, please give constructive suggestions on MotLD rebalance so 1) LD in it's name mean more 2) It doesn't get that imbalanced broken thing it was before. We don't bite and we are open to well-argumented suggestions, after all. Just please, don't start that "imma can't make a monk powerbuild" again.. We know that and it was said thousand times that while we don't deny people to powerbuild, it's not the sort of gameplay we are focused on. We try to make classes balanced, niche and having their RP flavor rather than just making options for "I'm Mary Sue, i go and kill things".

MoTLD helped any monk build overcome a fundamental issue that plague most/nearly all monk builds –Fortitude saves. 14 levels of MoTLD adds +7 saves against death effects. Granted, taking 10 levels of Divine Champion adds +5 to your saves, is high BAB, and provides access to Epic WIS feats… but it doesn’t progress spell resistance. MoTLD also added +4 AC at the 14th level.

I’ve already RCR’d my monk to remove the MoTLD and find little to no impact other than a minor hit to my AC. Candidly, I feel less restricted because the RP felt contrived. Monks are one of the few pure classes that work well. A monk may appear OP if one capability is viewed in isolation. Speed in isolation. AC in isolation. Etc. However, as a system, the Monk class is mostly balanced, meaning it has its warts as well. Greater Flurry of Blows offsets a 22 base AB at the 30th level. Ki-Fists simply allow a Monk to bypass Lawful/Adamantine DR… But this does not mean a Monk has adamantine fists. Unless it’s possible to legitimately retain these Monk abilities and progress in the MoTLD PrC after 16 levels of Monk, it’s not clear what will attract players to the MoTLD PrC in the future without an RP plot to attract the Abbot of the High Crypt or some other MoTLD faction related activity to Baldur’s.

[MrSmith]

In the next update, crusaders will receive couple of bonus feats:

5. Power Attack
10. Indomitable Soul
18. Divine Shroud

Divine Shroud:

Crusader calls upon his patron to protect himself from hostile magic. He receives Spell Resistance equal to 12 + crusader levels for the duration of the effect.

Duration: 10 rounds
Cooldown: 10 rounds
Uses per day: 3

Disclaimer:

The feats are received AFTER the level up.

Friday I RCR'd a Crusader to 21st level and noticed Power Attack, Indomitable Soul, etc. were not included in the build. Did this change go into effect? Thank you!! Cheers.

[Bobthehero]

Divine Shroud:

Crusader calls upon his patron to protect himself from hostile magic. He receives Spell Resistance equal to 12 + crusader levels for the duration of the effect.

Duration: 10 rounds
Cooldown: 10 rounds
Uses per day: 3

Disclaimer:

The feats are received AFTER the level up.

Oh that'd be a neat way to give the WoD and AK back some of their features that way... wink wink

[matelener]

Corrected the issue. Expect it working in the next update.

[MrSmith]

Corrected the issue. Expect it working in the next update.

Excellent! Thank you for the feedback.

[Kalgain]

. If you don't like g. flurry being removed, please give constructive suggestions on MotLD rebalance so 1) LD in it's name mean more 2) It doesn't get that imbalanced broken thing it was before. We don't bite and we are open to well-argumented suggestions.

I think it is now clear that maths tells us that removing greater flurry penalizes the motld far beyond the bonuses it provides.

If you dont want to argue using maths, but discuss it from an RP perspective, probably the most reasonable thing to change is stunning fist. Instead of giving the motld new fist feats, change the functionality of the stunning fist. Since motld like death, stunning fist seems opposed to what motld do. The problem with stunning fist is that it is a prerequisite for many other skills, so simply removing it could restrict a lot of character development.

[matelener]

Corrected the issue. Expect it working in the next update.

Excellent! Thank you for the feedback.

Should be live now

[Steve]

Divine Shroud cannot be dragged to the Hot bar.

[matelener]

Divine Shroud cannot be dragged to the Hot bar.

Fixed, and unfortunately yet another update will be needed. Might not be so quick

[Steve]

Divine Shroud cannot be dragged to the Hot bar.

Fixed, and unfortunately yet another update will be needed. Might not be so quick

Great. Thanks for the quick fix. I’ll just use CL 30 elixirs until it comes online.

[Habitu]

To my understanding this is in right? If so, is it first level only and I missed reading that?

[EasternCheesE]

To my understanding this is in right? If so, is it first level only and I missed reading that?

No, they can be taken on any level, but you can only take one. Sadly, since those are, in fact, vanilla feats(which never went into production), they are blackboxed, so it came as a surprise to us too.

[Hoihe]

To my understanding this is in right? If so, is it first level only and I missed reading that?

No, they can be taken on any level, but you can only take one. Sadly, since those are, in fact, vanilla feats(which never went into production), they are blackboxed, so it came as a surprise to us too.

Could a new background that granted one of these feats work maybe? would likely be of rather heavy clutter but at cost of -1 saves it could be fair?