The Bladesinger PRC

[Tantive]

This is where I start to get frustrated, as I give example after example but feel I'm stuck in a circle. As I explained this server has a lack readiness of Death Ward, for some reasons we have a strange and steep restriction on its availability out side of the class's who can produce it.

Deathward here is 1hour/level, a level 4 cleric spell. In essence no character is mechanicly limited to take this protection, because it can be potioned. However Death Ward wands sits almost in every umd dippers wand these days.

Our lack of readiness of Death Ward exists only because of the economy, and nothing else. There need only be a player making a divine brewer to change this around.

[Tantive]

In the end how many builds do not have spell books on BG????? How many on the server right now don't have a spell boon that are minimum level 20? Have we stopped and ask ourselves about this?

This part is also due to inflexibility of items. While casters can more readily pick and choose what they take to enhance themselves with, mundane classes are bound by an economy of loot and not of crafting.

[Invoker]

Can I get a list of these "top teir builds" because WOW that is crushing the server... granted even I know a few other builds that can do it better..

Seriously though..

where is this list.. and where does it fall in?

top ten..

top 20?

bottom 20? ((LOL at anyone that says it falls here))

LOL at me, then, because there are easily 20 builds better than any Bladesinger you can ever do. You vastly overrate this class. It's a good (as in: worth using...) PrC, with strong RP flavor, but stop there.

A few (not all, mind you...) build types CLEARLY SUPERIOR to any Bladesinger you can possibly ever play:

- Any EDM FS
- Decent DDs
- Any STR or EDM Bard (possibly any Bard)
- Any 30 Warlock that makes sense (no PBing or min-maxing needed)
- Any 30 Monk or Monk/F/Asn built properly (Monk25/SD5 played competently belongs here)
- Most caster Sorcerers (especially stuff like Sor/SA/PM types, and Sor/ASOC/BM/AM even more)
- Most caster Wizards (all of them, if played by me)
- Caster and melee Clerics (especially with Hierophant, but even without, really...)
- All Druids, especially Dragon Druids and Hierophant Druids

Here you go: that's about 40-50 builds minimum. And as I said, that's not all of them.

The best Bladesingers are on the level of a pure lvl 30 CHA Paladin or a pure lvl 30 STR Ranger. That's as balanced as it gets.

This does not include a bladesingers alpha hit with Sword hit damage, Vamp Feast, sword hit damage .. thats a lot of damage.

Apart from the fact that you can't put VF in the sword (because it's a spell-like ability), and that it would be totally retarded to do so (far better to save the spell for when you really need it), Bladesingers can't use Vampiric Feast. It's an Evil only spell. Drow would be the only elves able to do so, and as I said, it's not only impossible, it's a terrible idea.

I feel some of the counters to this pvp situation are not available to all classes if not most.

The counters to that (death spell in the sword) are available to all classes: don't get hit, save against the spell, use a wand/potion of Death Ward (or have an ally cast it on you), spell resistance in all of its forms...everyone can access these. Some can even kill the Bladesinger before he/she attacks (rogues, for instance).

There is nothing to stop a "good elf" from putting Vamperic Feast or Finger of Death in their swords.

for nothing has stopped these characters from using these spells already as regular casting.

I have relatively good news for you: those elves you saw? Yeah...they probably weren't good...

In the end how many builds do not have spell books on BG????? How many on the server right now don't have a spell boon that are minimum level 20? Have we stopped and ask ourselves about this?

So yes this is a nice class. But it's still pvp imbalanced.

My lvl 30 Rogue19/SD3/GT4/WD4 which never uses his (extremely high) UMD. Died maybe 5 times in total, and never in events. It's a skill monkey, more than a combat Rogue, but does the job just fine due to high stealth capability, good movement speed and lots of SA dice.

Not many classes do NOT have a spellbook...because there aren't many classes AVAILABLE without a spellbook

What you have, are Monks (which are TOP TIER), Fighters (which are Tier 2 with Bladesingers, and TOP TIER with certain builds), Barbarians (recently buffed to Tier 2 at least), Rogues (mid Tier 2 with their combat builds, but they can do unique things nobody else can), Swashbucklers (very strong against certain enemies, very weak to impotent against others, and that's why they don't get picked much) and the recently added Phantom.

Everything else casts, so...that's probably why nobody stops and asks him/herself about "this".

Bladesinger isn't imbalanced in PvP. It's actually pretty average in it. Nothing it does is very dangerous, all of it can be countered, and the BS itself tends to be pretty squishy (HP amount will always be within a good Assassin's build's first flurry...).

Also, let's clarify the Vorpal claims: Vorpal (as in: AD&D's Tarrasque's Vorpal effect, for instance) kills you on hit. As in: roll to hit within Vorpal range? You're dead. Each attack.

Bladesinger needs to imbue the sword (full round action...) after each use (one charge only stored...), then needs to hit and you can save/be immune to the effect. In which case, they wasted the spell (limited spell slots, of course).

Definitely not the Vorpal I remember...

Would you, in light of the above, be willing to consider things are not exactly as bad as you think ?

[Valefort]

As I mentioned a few pages ago you can store epic spells in the sword though, but not spells that are AoE cast on self, like vamp feast or fireburst. However you can store a greater ruin if you feel like it, or a damnation or entropic husk if you somehow picked those, idea is that the spell is stored in the sword after all and it's being released on the thing it touches.

[Invoker]

As I mentioned a few pages ago you can store epic spells in the sword though, but not spells that are AoE cast on self, like vamp feast or fireburst. However you can store a greater ruin if you feel like it, or a damnation or entropic husk if you somehow picked those, idea is that the spell is stored in the sword after all and it's being released on the thing it touches.

Thank you for the clarification, Valefort.

I can see it being useful on a "3/day" epic spell, although storing other spells is much better (because they cast slower, and can be rupted, unlike Epic Spells...)

However, I still maintain that storing VF (even if possible, which it isn't...) would be demented: nobody half-decent at this game would do that, unless you can keep the charges in the sword when you rest (I don't recall reading this anywhere, though).

[Valefort]

That's something I completely forgot to test but it should not work, and if it does work it will be corrected.

[Steve]

If one had an Elven Sorcerer 3 / Cleric 17 / Bladesinger 10, would/does Bladesinger forward Cleric spellcasting? Or is it coded to only forward Arcane magic?

Would it be possible to make a Sorcerer 3 / Cleric 9 / Bladesinger 10 / Heirophant 8?? If so, with PsC, one could get 30 CL using Hiero spell powers.

[Valefort]

Only arcane progression.

[dedude]

Will Bladesong Style only give AC based on INT? Or will it also work with CHA for the sorc bladesingers?

[Valefort]

It's supposed to be INT lore wise but I guess I could make it the highest between CHA and INT, I can't see any particular power issue for such a change.

[chad878262]

It's supposed to be INT lore wise but I guess I could make it the highest between CHA and INT, I can't see any particular power issue for such a change.

There is no balance concern. If the Sorc/BladeSinger dips Paladin, Cleric or Blackguard for EDM it negatively impacts both CL and AC. The Bladesong style is up to 1/2 BS class level (max +5) based on 1/2 INT (or CHA, in this case). That means you'd need 30 modified CHA in order to gain the +5 to AC. It would be very difficult, if even possible to get a 26 CHA and a 21 STR on an elf, but maybe a wood elf could do it if they min/max. The results would also be sub par since your max CL is now 26. Something like Sorc7/BG3/BS10/EK10 for example would have 26 BAB, 26 CL and EDM, but would either have 22 STR, 22 CHA (26/26 assuming bulls/eagles), so +4 to dodge AC, but would be in light armor with no shield using a long sword. If they want Divine Shield that is another -1 to CL and 25 is really pushing it for a class with no HiPS or other way to avoid dispels/breaches. When they use EDM their damage will exceed a Wizard/EK/BS, but at all other times the wizard will be better. In addition, if we are talking about lower CL builds a W5/SB5/EK10/BS10 would have BAB 27, CL 24, but could stop DEX at 14 or 16 and pump INT to 28 or 30 and double up on INT to damage. Point being it adds building options, but gaining extra damage comes at a cost to CL regardless if you are looking at Sorc or Wiz... However, Wiz can still go Combat Insight without sacrificing CL (W10/EK10/DS10 will have 29 CL) so it is probably the superior choice. If I missed anything as to CHA being added to AC instead of INT then I'm sure someone will stop by to correct me, but IMO since the lore of the class says to add INT this would be a DM call if CHA should be allowed.

[Tantive]

It's supposed to be INT lore wise but I guess I could make it the highest between CHA and INT, I can't see any particular power issue for such a change.

If the Sorc/BladeSinger dips Paladin,

Can't as far as I am aware. Its Seldarine only and you can't have paladins of the Seldarine as they are not lawful. (The closest class we have is Champion of Corellon Larethian that does the divine flavor, which Kaedrin implemented with Champion of the Wild, and ignored its lore origins by opening it up for all.)

[Valefort]

A possibility would be an EDM cleric 3 / sorc 7 / EK 10 / Bladesinger 10, I'll check if that's doable.

[chad878262]

It's supposed to be INT lore wise but I guess I could make it the highest between CHA and INT, I can't see any particular power issue for such a change.

If the Sorc/BladeSinger dips Paladin,

Can't as far as I am aware. Its Seldarine only and you can't have paladins of the Seldarine as they are not lawful. (The closest class we have is Champion of Corellon Larethian that does the divine flavor, which Kaedrin implemented with Champion of the Wild, and ignored its lore origins by opening it up for all.)

Regardless, point was you could make an EDM one. Forgot about the rule requiring deity must be Seldarine, but you could still have a cleric 3 or BG3 and my point was the EDM BladeSinger sacrifices CL and similar could be build by stacking INT damage via Swashbuckler/Wizard variant.

[Tantive]

a damnation or entropic husk

Entropic husk is quite evil to destroy the soul, damnation is another somewhat unwilling choice.

Essentially, with how things are, drow will get to be more efficient and dangerous bladesingers then elves can.