The Bladesinger PRC

[Valefort]

How it works is looking at the armor type, then looking up the spell failure these kind of armors have and applying a corresponding temporary -ASF, which is removed when you unequip the armor. I'm stealing that description change, it's indeed more precise, thanks !

[mrm3ntalist]

Hidden: show

Been off for a few days so this is a bit long, sry. I highlighted some questions, the answer to those may help me stop scratching this itch. (PM me if you don't want to post).

Stone body gets you ASF. Only still/autostill allows you to cast. Bladesingers get 0 asf when using light armor. Anything else ( shields, heavier armors, spells ) add ASF

Question: Are we using Kaedrins code or our own?
I would like that answered as Kaerdins does not add ASF to the Bladesinder when he casts Stone Body, he can cast all his spells just fine. Tested.

The top bosses, it is going to die.

How? How is the Balor even going to hit my Wiz / BS? Does it have more than 40ab?

Low AB even lower damage and you will run out of spells

Err . . swap in a Tensers Transformation? I'm surprised I had to highlight that to head of QC (+8ab when you run out of spells).

A typical Sorck10/EK10/DS10 can solo the Balor

So I take it this one can as well? (Sorc/BS. Can you link me your Sorc10/ek10/DS10 build to compare?). Note: As this one doesn't really need the DC / extra spells, I thought about dropping the epic CHA for prowess / combat insight?

Question: What is the HP and AB on the Balor and the UD Pit Fiend?
If its less than 6000hp, my Wiz / Bs is going to nuke it. (6000 - Avas = 4500, - Avas = 3375 - Vamp regen = 2531. Then the blasting spells)

Question? Can someone confirm how much damage avasculate does / works?
I don't have the experience with the spell so I'm guessing 25% in the above calculation. It may be a mute point.

What you dont see at the builder is that this has a damage output of 5STr +5GMW +1d8Base = 14,5 + any additional weapon damage. 14,5 at a max AB of 37 (ac52) or AB31 ( ac58) - i didnt double check those number. I am using what bigj posted

Its 16.5 + 1d8 (longsword, 2h), 37ab is just for mobs, for boss the ab can be +8 Tensers, +1 Haste, then 6 attacks per round (Crit range 16-20). Fine for an EK according to the EK thread.

It wont be anywhere near the FS

Depends on the HP of bosses, and if the FS can kill them in less than 2 mins.

All the talk about melee and fighters led to a penny dropping, maybe this isn't a mage PrC its a fighter PrC, which happens to advance spellcasting -

D8hp, High bab, bonus Ac, free combat feat, slow spell, Imbue spell onto sword rather than cast. Auto cast in armour WITHOUT needing lvl 9 spells.

So, for all those that want to add a level 6/7 arcane spellbook to a fighter, here ya go. Starting with one which benefits from other recent changes QC made:

Swashbuckler / BS with Epic Precision / Insightful Strike / Combat Insight

One Stat (int) gives: +20 Damage, +5 AC and spellcasting (Inc. 17 bonus spells). Weakening Critical means the longer the fight, the less chance of getting hit.

Spells: Don't need to many buffs (+3 items and +4 bracers etc will do for most mobs), lots of spell slots at each level to recast. Then utility spellbook including Invis, Haste, Mirror Image, Breaches, Spell mantles, Teleport, True seeing, Stone Body, you know the rest. GMW doesn't dispel (make ANY weapon a +4 weapon). Others you use depending on map or for bosses (IMA, Superior Resistance, Grt Heroism, DR, Displacement etc). Plus use ANY scroll if situation calls for it (Mords).

Others:

Swashbuckler / Weapon Master BS
Fighter / Weapon Master / BS
That free feat at lvl 4 works well with these (mobilty/spring/whirlwind), although I haven't added them in these builds. Feel free to swap it in/out for something.

Swash / Assasin / BS
Not sure if ICE is needed with hipsing, but this is Cool >> Imbue sword (Avasculate?), 3 x 4d6 DC 28 Death Attacks + Insight damage then rest of flurry. Hips. Imbue sword, repeat repeat etc.

Of course you don't need assassin if you want hips, but as INT gets you damage, ac, spellcasting, you may as well use it for the DA.

So glad the insistence from earlier in this thread to make this 'Sun Elf' or 'Moon Elf' or 'Wood Elf' only, got dropped once the lorebook being misquoted was highlighted.

Question: A wizard, swash, weapon master and assassin, all bladesingers, are sitting around the campfire. Along comes an Elven leader and says "Go kill PC X, he is our enemy". Would be it then lore accurate for them to go murder him, and it would be a 'Good' act?

BigJ

Hey bigj. Read your post. I seen that chad already replied to some of your posts. I just want to highlight a couple of things:

a. Even with Tensers, a nbuild that does an average of 15-20 damage cannot solo bosses such as the balor. Why? the answer is related with b

b. Blast the Balor? Avaclulate? IGMS? Orbs? Have you tried those against the balor? Try it then let us know how it goes. FYI, the Balor has damage reduction ( other than the cold iron ), Elemental/magic immunity/reduction.

Like i said before though, it seems there is nothing I can say to change your mind. That is fine though. The Bladesinger will come out soon. Make your build and post here your achievements. One of us will post "I told you so".

[BigJ]

Got back in, had a few beers but here goes:

@ Mrmm

Like i said before though, it seems there is nothing I can say to change your mind. That is fine though. The Bladesinger will come out soon. Make your build and post here your achievements. One of us will post "I told you so".

That statement is full of predetermined intent, but I kinda got that vibe already. I have to ask though, it IS going to be tested before it is introduced and the questions anwersered, or do you have the power to skip that part?


@ Tantitive.

Thats a pretty extreme example so I guess the answer is YES. If a Bladesinger can justify being judge, jury and executioner of their own queen then I guess no evil PC is safe.

@ Chad

I thought there were other discussions where you could play smart and avoid dispel issues? Weren't you a part of those? (Sry if I got that wrong). Besides, to repeat the point I made those builds DO NOT NEED BUFFS. You can plough through the lesser dispels then use the level 6/7 arcane spellbook as the situation suits. Or, if you need Protection from Evil have like 8 castings of it for that specific zone. With 30 INT and specialised wizard you have like 8/8/7/7/6/5/3 (thankyou wiki!) spells to fill up on. Wouldn't a normal assassin kill for that?

@ Valefort.

So excatly how does the Sorc10/ek10/DS10 kill the Balor as Mrmm said. It may help me understand.

An interesting idea that can be made playable if built better but nothing it can do is outside the possibilities of an SB 14 / duelist 10 / any class with UMD for example, and that one will have more damage. The CL here is too low to be permanently buffed, because of durations and dispels, that holds true for all the builds you made.

Interesting you used Duelist, it loses it AC bonus in armor. Hence BS has a bigger AC bonus (5+6) and advances spellcasting. Re dispels see above. BTW, How much does UMD cost to cast Stone Body, Greater Stoneskin, lesser Spell Mantle, l.Mind Blank, Greater Spell Breach, True seeing, Grt Heroism, Spell Resistemnce etc. Of course the level 7 versions also have Ethereal Jaunt, Avasculate, Energy Immunity etc. Pick and choose depending on the target.

Also assassin does not meet the bladesinger requirements, it's either wizard or sorc, nothing else for arcane spells.

Err, all those builds have wizard, as you correctly say it was needed. The assasin one has Wizard 7, so it can cast avasulate in the same flurry with its death attacks, with +20 damage per hit (Insight). I just realised, isn't that like Auto-quicken without needing lvl 9 spells or epic feats?

with 20 damage per hit against a 50% immunity to slashing creature with massive HP

Err .. switch to rapier? Or does it have pericing resistance too? (Genuine question as I dont know)

Mrmm's "I told you so" got me inspired so I tweaked the build.

Bladesinger Blaster

AC = 59 : 10 (base) + 3 (tumble) + 4 (dodge) +4 (deflection) + 6 (IMA) +4 (shield) + 5 (shadow shield) + 6 (ICE) + 6 (mithral chain mail) +4 (DEX) + 5 (INT to AC) +1 (Dodge feat) +1 (ext haste, forgot that).

Bab / AB: 22 ( 5 attacks) / 38 : +4 (STR) +5 (GMW) + 4 (Grt Hero) +1 (WF) +1 (Epic Prowess) +1 Ext haste (for boss). Tensers adds +8 for when you run out of spells, if you want to swap it in.

Damage: Rapier - 10 (INT) 5 (GMW) 1d6 Base + any additional weapon damage. 6 attacks with 15-20 crit.
Damage: Longsword - 15 (INT 2h), 5 (GMW) 1d8 Base + any additional weapon damage. 6 attacks with 17-20 crit.

Know to many high AB wizard builds that can combine Prowess / C.Insight / 2 x Auto quicken levels and also cast in armor?

You know I'm not sure I need ICE. Did some rough math before I went out re ICE / AoO verses defensive casting, the numbers were about the same.

Spell list from earlier post.

Hidden: show

It had 66 spells (with a angrays slave collar (0,1,2,3) and wizard ring (1 x 4 level). There are more spell slot items around but those would do for now. I filled up like this. I did this rather quickly so could perhaps be better.

Self Buff: Prot Evil, IMA, GMW, Elemental Immune, Sup. Resistance, Grt Stoneskin. Extended: Shield, Bulls, Bear, Cats, Shadow Shield, Grt Heroism, blindsight.
Summon + Buff: Gate, Lvl 9 summon (backup), Prot Evil, IMA, Spiderskin, Animal Instincts.
Auto Quickened: 7 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8), 6 x Ice darts (9 x 2d4+1).
Further Quickened: 1 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8), 2 x Arc of Lightning (21d6), 2 x IGMS (12 x 2d6)
Empowered: 7 x Orb of Sound (18d6), 2 x Polar Ray (30d6)
Maximised: 1 x Ice Darts (9 x 2d4+1), 4 x Orb of Sound (18d6), 3 x IGMS (12 x 2d6), 2 x Arc of Lightning (21d6)
Other: Assay, 2 x Avasculate, lssr breach, grt breach, Mirror Image x 2 (Auto quick), Ext. Displacement, 2 x Ext Haste.

Its a ASoC build so that tip from Chad about meta-magic working with Avasulate is quite good. Now I know how the spell works (Ie. 15% damage on Balor, does it do more to the UD Pit?). Drop the two Max Arc and two Emp Polar Rays now giving me 6 Avasulates. Drop a couple of auto-quickened Ice Darts for some more auto quickened Mirror Images (giving me roughly 40 total, for when it gets past my 50% conceal). Does the Balor bypass DR?

Blame the wider and more powerful options evil alignments have.

You know if this whole thing has been about addressing some good/evil balance issue then just say so. I dont mind. I've played across the spectrum.

BigJ

PS. Maybe the drink talking but I have to ask, Comments Only your posts confuse me, are you someone's forum alt?

PPS. 20 years ago I'd play hockey on the Sat, get pissed with the lads (ocaasionaly before the game ), go nightclub, get up the next morning to play Sunday morning Football and back to the pub for lunchtime. Nowadays I dont drink much and when I do just hope I can get out of bed the next day .. at some point.

PPPS. I am going to bed, forever. Hopefully forever is about 3pm tomorrow afternoon.

[mrm3ntalist]

That statement is full of predetermined intent, but I kinda got that vibe already. I have to ask though, it IS going to be tested before it is introduced and the questions anwersered, or do you have the power to skip that part?

predetermined intent like the post you made about

Code: Select all

A power PrC suggested by elf players, QC'd by elf players and Dev'd by elf players, for elf players.

You cant expect to post such things and noone say something about it, with the same level of intent, can you?

Some of us we were expecting comments about this PRC being not powerful enough. To read posts such as this makes me more certain that the PRC is fine.

I can only admire the effort you put in thinking about this PRC and making builds. But other than that, when two opinions are so much different only practice will tell which is right. The PRC is done. Lets wait and see if things are as bad/good as you make them to be

PS I hope you had a good night out.

[Valefort]

So excatly how does the Sorc10/ek10/DS10 kill the Balor as Mrmm said. It may help me understand.

With his sword, here is a build with the stats it gets : http://nwn2db.com/build/?261851

Hidden: show

AB : 25 (BAB) + 10 (STR) +2 (feats) +5 (GMW) +4 (GH) + 1 (Haste) - 6 (IPA) = 41 AB

Damage : 1d6 (base) +5 (GMW) +2 (some elemental damage) + 15 (STR, two handing) +12 (IPA) = 37.5 damage, 26.5 one handing

AC : 10 (base) + 8 (mithral full plate) + 3 (DEX) + 3 (tumble) + 6 (IMA) +5 (shadow sheild) +4 (deflection item) +4 (dodge boots) + 4 (shield spell) + 1 (haste) = 48 AC, 52 with tower shield

Idea is to cast spell and then slash him to death because you have excellent defenses and enough damage, the numbers above don't take mirror image, displacement, iron body and bigby 5 into account.

Interesting you used Duelist, it loses it AC bonus in armor. Hence BS has a bigger AC bonus (5+6) and advances spellcasting. Re dispels see above. BTW, How much does UMD cost to cast Stone Body, Greater Stoneskin, lesser Spell Mantle, l.Mind Blank, Greater Spell Breach, True seeing, Grt Heroism, Spell Resistemnce etc. Of course the level 7 versions also have Ethereal Jaunt, Avasculate, Energy Immunity etc. Pick and choose depending on the target.

First the AC difference is minor : 1, secondly it costs a bunch but it's not like you need them all the time you can pick and choose depending on the target exactly like you said. And thirdly the duelist version will have more damage, which is quite important for somethign that is primarily a meleer. Again though that build will be playable, and that's a very good thing imo, but it's in no way overpowered, compare to the STR sorc above if you'd like.

Err, all those builds have wizard, as you correctly say it was needed. The assasin one has Wizard 7, so it can cast avasulate in the same flurry with its death attacks, with +20 damage per hit (Insight). I just realised, isn't that like Auto-quicken without needing lvl 9 spells or epic feats?

Yeah you're right, I went through that one too quickly, and yes it can make a death attack flurry with avasculate on top (but just two attacks, having a weapon in your off-hand will cancel bladesinger abilities), pretty nasty but I don't think it competes with the damage of a simple rogue 16/ assassin 9/ IB 5 with PTWF coming out of HiPS, not to mention this one will have more death attacks. So again : playable yes, overpowered ? Not at all.

Also as mentioned earlier you can't use song of celerity while remaining hidden.

Err .. switch to rapier? Or does it have pericing resistance too? (Genuine question as I dont know)

He has piercing resistance too (and bludgeoning), the only answer is important base damage.

AC = 59 : 10 (base) + 3 (tumble) + 4 (dodge) +4 (deflection) + 6 (IMA) +4 (shield) + 5 (shadow shield) + 6 (ICE) + 6 (mithral chain mail) +4 (DEX) + 5 (INT to AC) +1 (Dodge feat) +1 (ext haste, forgot that).

Bab / AB: 22 ( 5 attacks) / 38 : +4 (STR) +5 (GMW) + 4 (Grt Hero) +1 (WF) +1 (Epic Prowess) +1 Ext haste (for boss). Tensers adds +8 for when you run out of spells, if you want to swap it in.

Damage: Rapier - 10 (INT) 5 (GMW) 1d6 Base + any additional weapon damage. 6 attacks with 15-20 crit.
Damage: Longsword - 15 (INT 2h), 5 (GMW) 1d8 Base + any additional weapon damage. 6 attacks with 17-20 crit.

Know to many high AB wizard builds that can combine Prowess / C.Insight / 2 x Auto quicken levels and also cast in armor?

You know I'm not sure I need ICE. Did some rough math before I went out re ICE / AoO verses defensive casting, the numbers were about the same.

The AB on that one is still too low, as well as the damage defense is obviously fine, you don't need ICE I'd say.

Its a ASoC build so that tip from Chad about meta-magic working with Avasulate is quite good. Now I know how the spell works (Ie. 15% damage on Balor, does it do more to the UD Pit?). Drop the two Max Arc and two Emp Polar Rays now giving me 6 Avasulates. Drop a couple of auto-quickened Ice Darts for some more auto quickened Mirror Images (giving me roughly 40 total, for when it gets past my 50% conceal). Does the Balor bypass DR?

6 avasculates, okay.

1st avasculate => 750 damage, balor is now at 4250 hp
2nd avsculate => 637 damage, balor is now at 3613 hp
3rd avasculate => 541 damage, balor is now at 3072 hp
4th avasculate => 460 damage, balor is now at 2612 hp
5th avasculate => 391 damage, balor is now at 2221 hp
6th avasculate => 333 damage, balor is now at 1888 hp

It's very good but you have to finish the job Balor does not bypass DR.

You know if this whole thing has been about addressing some good/evil balance issue then just say so. I dont mind. I've played across the spectrum.

It doesn't adress that problem at all though, any powerbuilt non-good arcanist is more powerful.

[Steve]

The problem with Val's Standard Strength Sorcerer example is the low HP, low Saves and lack of Steadfast Determination. If this build gets hit, or fails a Save—which it most definitely will because of how the Engine skews dice—it will die, fast and hard.

Not to forget to mention gettingDispelled or Mordified!!!

Anyway, at this point, I think the better question left to answer is if the new Bladesinger PrC is any fun to play? The unique mechanics should be fun and rewarding to use, and if not, then it is questionable why to have it, unless we're arguing that without the title Bladesinger on the Character Sheet, one cannot RP a Bladesinger Character.

[Valefort]

Once and for all builds who have steadfast determination are complete cowards, for the weak minded there is death ward wand. Also low saves ?

16 (base) + 6 (spellcraft) +6 (superior resistance) +4 (GH) = 32 fort vs spells, with 0 items ! Use that +3 CON item you're at 34.

As for the HP the plan is to use a +3 CON item as well as a toughness item. Suddenly you're at 290 HP, +20 HP from greater heroism : 310

For mords there is .. counterspell ! You're a sorcerer you can counter a bunch of those and there are not that many places with Mord. Dispel is a non-issue with 28 CL and sorc.

[mrm3ntalist]

Once and for all builds who have steadfast determination are complete cowards, for the weak minded there is death ward wand. Also low saves ?

There is shadow shield as well. Let alone empowered mantles. A sorcerer dieing by a save or die spell in PvE must be doing something very wrong.

[Steve]

How can 10% dispel-ability be a non-issue?

I also look at the build(s) from a not-only-at-level-30 perspective.

300 HP without divine regen simply means massive consumables, which is fine.

[Valefort]

How can 10% dispel-ability be an issue ? And if you feel unsafe you can skip some dragonslayer levels and for more sorc levels

[Steve]

How can 10% dispel-ability be an issue ? And if you feel unsafe you can skip some dragonslayer levels and for more sorc levels

Sure, Val, you can alter the build in order to answer any question!

You should know this: the Engine works such that low percentages ACTUALLY are a big deal, because they occur far too often...for their lowness. Take some time playing a caster with 5–10% ASF, and empirically witness just how often your casting fails. It is cruel, man!

Look, are you creating the Bladesinger PrC to match your example build, in power? If yes, then by your stats, it should blast away on the Server.

If not, then my point is that I hope the PrC is simply REALLY FUN to play, with unique aspects to it. Because otherwise, as you've proven with statistics, Players will more often go for uber power over less power, because...well, we know why!!

[chad878262]

How can 10% dispel-ability be an issue ? And if you feel unsafe you can skip some dragonslayer levels and for more sorc levels

Sure, Val, you can alter the build in order to answer any question!

You should know this: the Engine works such that low percentages ACTUALLY are a big deal, because they occur far too often...for their lowness. Take some time playing a caster with 5–10% ASF, and empirically witness just how often your casting fails. It is cruel, man!

Look, are you creating the Bladesinger PrC to match your example build, in power? If yes, then by your stats, it should blast away on the Server.

If not, then my point is that I hope the PrC is simply REALLY FUN to play, with unique aspects to it. Because otherwise, as you've proven with statistics, Players will more often go for uber power over less power, because...well, we know why!!

This is why I prefer to take wizard or sorcerer for 13 levels or add three levels of another full caster progression class and stop dragon slayer at 7 to hit CL 30. Not much an option for blade singer as you really want all 10 levels, unless you really want iron body and are going for auto still anyway, in which case DS is better.

[Valefort]

But I tested the 28 CL thing Steve, I wasn't dispelled a single time in a stroll in the VoD until Valgoth and mordenkainen ! Who didn't dispel me entirely by far. To those saying they're dispelled frequently I say : nonsense ! For the fun part though I'll let you know that valgoth did dispel my death ward and I rolled a one just after

As for the Bladesinger PRC I didn't build it to match the sorc build I just made no, it was more of an imprecise boundary in my mind and as far as I can tell it cannot be beat by any bladesinger build. Bladesinger offers a viable alternative gish path and hopefully the song of celerity mechanic will be fun enough as well.

[Steve]

For the fun part though I'll let you know that valgoth did dispel my death ward and I rolled a one just after

Ha! The Ghost in the Machine WANTS TO KILL US ALL!!

Anyway, like I said: playing a lvl30 is different to all the Levels one needs to play in order to get there! Even if RCR'd to 20 to begin with!

Now, if it was introduced that at lvl 30, if your Toon dies, it got pushed back to lvl 28–29, we'd see A LOT of different ideas about 5% failure! Lol.

[The Whistler]

Is the class available now ?