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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:25 am
by Rhifox
Duelist AC pre-patch: 10 + 10 Dex + 4 Nat + 5 Def + 4-6 Armor + 6-7 Int + 3-4 Shield + 3 Tumble = 45-49, plus 3 or plus 6 with Tumble (with -3/-6 AB)
Duelist AC post-patch: 10 + 10 Dex + 4 Nat + 4 Def + 4-6 Armor + 6-7 Int + 3-4 Shield + 2 FD + 3 Tumble (in FD) + 10 Duelist level (in FD) = 56-58 (with -4 AB). Add another 5 to that if you are in Parry mode instead of FD.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:30 am
by Flatted Fifth
It's not an improvement if that ac is only available as a nerf to attack. When we want to sacrifice attack to boost defense CE and parry mode were already a thing. Also an important part of elaborate parry was freeing up an equippable item slot. And you're still taking ac away from light armor users like swash and ranger by denying them the optimization that you're giving heavy armor that was simply not in the original game made by actual professional game designers.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:34 am
by Rhifox
Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:30 amAnd you're still taking ac away from light armor users like swash and ranger by denying them the optimization that you're giving heavy armor that was simply not in the original game made by actual professional game designers.
Okay, history check here:
Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater
Heavy Armor Optimization were not in NWN2. They were added by KAEDRIN later, based on their PNP versions (which ONLY applied to heavy armor). Last year, as a BGTSCC-specific change, Matelener removed the Heavy component and made these usable for all non-mithral armors of any type. THAT is what's homebrew, not "original game by actual professional game designers". If I was to change it to what was actually originally intended by the actual professional game designers, it would be open to heavy armor and heavy armor only.
So, I'd appreciate less dismissive remarks.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:46 am
by Flatted Fifth
I mean... look at how many people are saying they're trying to figure out how to "fix" their builds after you mess about with tumble and optimization. That literally means you are breaking people's builds if they then have to fix them. Why?
The mechanics of the game were designed by people who are professional game designers. The implementation in code is buggy at times but that's not the design team's faults. Fix wonky code? Yes, please do. But the team here messing about with the mechanics and balance is how I wound up witnessing someone do 300+ damage in a single attack with a heavy crossbow because you guys gave them full attacks per round and dex bonus to damage on top of manyshot and improved rapid shot and high damage arrows. It's like GTA VI: Baldur's Gate out there sometimes with those +6 full auto crossbows and somehow I seem to be the only one who thinks that that's not a good thing. And now you're going to seriously nerf the usual, while-attacking-properly AC of every character I have except one and also of every ranger and swash and rogue on the server and you're trying to tell me it's an "upgrade"
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:48 am
by Flatted Fifth
Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:34 am
Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:30 amAnd you're still taking ac away from light armor users like swash and ranger by denying them the optimization that you're giving heavy armor that was simply not in the original game made by actual professional game designers.
Okay, history check here:
Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater
Heavy Armor Optimization were not in NWN2. They were added by KAEDRIN later, based on their PNP versions (which ONLY applied to heavy armor). Last year, as a BGTSCC-specific change, Matelener removed the Heavy component and made these usable for all non-mithral armors of any type. THAT is what's homebrew, not "original game by actual professional game designers". If I was to change it to what was actually originally intended by the actual professional game designers, it would be open to heavy armor and heavy armor only.
So, I'd appreciate less dismissive remarks.
I'm fully aware that optimization is not in the original game. it should never have been added here. Having added it here, making it available to armor other than heavy fixed that mistake. You're proposing un-fixing it. It being in PnP doesn't mean it should be in this game. That's why it wasn't. So no, it would not be in the game at all if it had been up to professional game designers because, in fact, it was up to them and it wasn't in it.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:52 am
by Steve
I think it’s just underestimated that a) players don’t like Mode switching; b) players don’t like Parry because it’s not “attacking,” it’s defense (and of course, we oldies have internalized that Party was both broken AND sucked eggs).
On a fundamental level, the changes flip the script from static AC bonuses and a KNOWN reliability, to a system that requires player thinking/switching/tactic-ing.
That simply might not be what players want!!
I think I’m seeing the concept of the changes clearly: if you want your PC to have high defense, the PC will have to sacrifice offense, which…makes sense.
It’s just that players have been building for BOTH for years.
On related notes:
- if Warlock can still RTA with the new CE staying on, then the Warlock player has gained a FREE feat for up to +5 AC with a -5 ab penalty (which always should have applied, and won’t really matter much since RTAs bypass so many AC types). Use free feat for ICE (will it exist?) or Armor Skin.
- Duelist AC whatever needs to consider the 2-handed spear use option.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:57 am
by Flatted Fifth
Btw, something being in PnP is never a reason for it to be in this game. In PnP played by 3 - 5 friends around a table, the assumption is that the guy in full plate and the ranger in leather are on the same side and taking different roles in the team. For this game, the designers knew that there could be times when the guy in plate and the guy in leather are on opposite sides and so certain things, such as heavy armor optimization feat, were intentionally left out. I reiterate, armor optimization shouldn't have been added in the first place. Having added it, making it work on all armors fixed that mistake. Now you're proposing un-fixing it.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 4:00 am
by whatever123
Those tumble mechanics sound very interesting, in particular the ability to move through enemy space. Mechanically speaking, does this mean that I could essentially "clip" through monsters with high tumble? That could be very useful for certain builds that have access to high tumble but do not actually have high enough AC to truly tank.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 4:02 am
by Rhifox
whatever123 wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:00 am
Those tumble mechanics sound very interesting, in particular the ability to move through enemy space. Mechanically speaking, does this mean that I could essentially "clip" through monsters with high tumble? That could be very useful for certain builds that have access to high tumble but do not actually have high enough AC to truly tank.
Yes.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 4:02 am
by Blame The Rogue
robed caster cleric/monks and robed spirit shamans also come to mind. they dont get MI and displacement like arcane mages, so all ac is critically important. before someone brings up wands, we all know they are little more than dispel fodder. what happens to an offensive casting cleric with minor in monk if the ac changes go in? it's not a good outcome i assure you. ac would be too low. would be better off wearing armor and shield. so again, another type of currently playable character is removed from our realm of possibilities
ty for not including the ac nerf in the next patch. also, please seriously consider not putting it in at all. ty
edit: as for the other things listed, some look very interesting, but are overshadowed proposed ac nerf, and mode reliance, which nerfs ab. what happens when you have to use numerous modes, and get knocked down, and now, you, take attacks of opportunity to re-engage each mode one by one? does a stun or kd turn off all active modes? also, can we not add all these interesting things without nerfing ac and ab? can we not add all these interesting things without turning this into a mode-like mmo? nwn 2 has never been that. ce, parry, yes, but all these modes now. i'm sorry, but i am not a fan
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 4:04 am
by BloodRiot
whatever123 wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:00 am
Those tumble mechanics sound very interesting, in particular the ability to move through enemy space. Mechanically speaking, does this mean that I could essentially "clip" through monsters with high tumble? That could be very useful for certain builds that have access to high tumble but do not actually have high enough AC to truly tank.
It's like the Thief Acrobat's Springboard. Only it doesn't have the associated stun mechanic and requires a tumble check to succeed.
In simple terms, its a 10ft(?) "blink teleport" on a successful tumble check that can pass through enemy occupied space yes.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 4:12 am
by Rhifox
Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:57 am
Btw, something being in PnP is never a reason for it to be in this game. In PnP played by 3 - 5 friends around a table, the assumption is that the guy in full plate and the ranger in leather
are on the same side and taking different roles in the team. For
this game, the designers knew that there could be times when the guy in plate and the guy in leather are on opposite sides and so certain things, such as heavy armor optimization feat, were intentionally left out. I reiterate, armor optimization shouldn't have been added in the first place. Having added it, making it work on all armors fixed that mistake. Now you're proposing un-fixing it.
It was changed because no one was taking it, because everyone just used mithral full plate instead of actual heavy armor. It was changed from its original implementation to make non-mithral armors stack up better against mithral armors. Now that we have new armor types that stack up better against mithral (including a heavy armor type that matches mithral for AC and qualifies for armor optimization, thus surpassing it), there's more reasons to take optimization.
And frankly, it should have never been made to work with light armors to begin with, because that armor type was and is the most desirable armor type.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 6:55 am
by EasternCheesE
Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:02 am
robed caster cleric/monks and robed spirit shamans also come to mind. they dont get MI and displacement like arcane mages, so all ac is critically important. before someone brings up wands, we all know they are little more than dispel fodder. what happens to an offensive casting cleric with minor in monk if the ac changes go in? it's not a good outcome i assure you. ac would be too low. would be better off wearing armor and shield. so again, another type of currently playable character is removed from our realm of possibilities
ty for not including the ac nerf in the next patch. also, please seriously consider not putting it in at all. ty
edit: as for the other things listed, some look very interesting, but are overshadowed proposed ac nerf, and mode reliance, which nerfs ab. what happens when you have to use numerous modes, and get knocked down, and now, you, take attacks of opportunity to re-engage each mode one by one? does a stun or kd turn off all active modes? also, can we not add all these interesting things without nerfing ac and ab? can we not add all these interesting things without turning this into a mode-like mmo? nwn 2 has never been that. ce, parry, yes, but all these modes now. i'm sorry, but i am not a fan
Aside from tumble AC change which was already said to be postponed for reconsideration, nothing really forces you to use any of newcoming modes.
With the upcoming things as they are advertised, nobody get any AC or AB hit. Everyone gets free "crappy CE" and parry now gives AC in fact, but you or anyone are not forced to use it at all.
Modes don't nerf AB if you don't use them. And if you didn't use them prior the patch, you won't suddenly have to start using them after the patch.
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:39 am
by Steve
How easy will it be to either permanently set the CE amount, and or change that amount on the fly (considering how vanilla CE/ICE was each a simple click on/off). And, can these modes be hotbar’d?
Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade
Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 8:24 am
by Blame The Rogue
EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 6:55 am
Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:02 am
robed caster cleric/monks and robed spirit shamans also come to mind. they dont get MI and displacement like arcane mages, so all ac is critically important. before someone brings up wands, we all know they are little more than dispel fodder. what happens to an offensive casting cleric with minor in monk if the ac changes go in? it's not a good outcome i assure you. ac would be too low. would be better off wearing armor and shield. so again, another type of currently playable character is removed from our realm of possibilities
ty for not including the ac nerf in the next patch. also, please seriously consider not putting it in at all. ty
edit: as for the other things listed, some look very interesting, but are overshadowed proposed ac nerf, and mode reliance, which nerfs ab. what happens when you have to use numerous modes, and get knocked down, and now, you, take attacks of opportunity to re-engage each mode one by one? does a stun or kd turn off all active modes? also, can we not add all these interesting things without nerfing ac and ab? can we not add all these interesting things without turning this into a mode-like mmo? nwn 2 has never been that. ce, parry, yes, but all these modes now. i'm sorry, but i am not a fan
Aside from tumble AC change which was already said to be postponed for reconsideration, nothing really forces you to use any of newcoming modes.
With the upcoming things as they are advertised, nobody get any AC or AB hit. Everyone gets free "crappy CE" and parry now gives AC in fact, but you or anyone are not forced to use it at all.
Modes don't nerf AB if you don't use them. And if you didn't use them prior the patch, you won't suddenly have to start using them after the patch.
i currently have 30 tumble and use CE. if all the changes were implemented i would indeed have to use two modes? ce wont stack with tumble in that case? meaning i would have to use fighting defensively to keep tumble ac and switch from ce to ath trip and use that mode as well to keep that ac, yes?