addition to PvP rules suggestion

[LeslieMS]

I voted no, and since the poll requests my reasoning, I am going to offer it. It is strictly opinion. Strictly my thoughts, it has nothing to do with the fact that most of my characters are good... or good ish... enough. I am basing these opinions off of pre-existing facts which have been stated and implemented in the past. I will attempt to keep this brief. I am not trying to start any arguments or step on toes. My apologies in advance for the inevitably hurt feelings.

Point One: The rules as they are written are already unbiased to good or evil. Good guys have just as much right to gang up on the bad guys. However, the issues of necromatic summons and summoners being felled, is in my opinion... not a product of the PVP rules but of the IG and IC laws of the lands. As a good and mostly lawful setting, with mostly lawful areas and a set of laws... folks are going to raise more eyebrows and alarms at a man walking around with and not getting attacked by a vampire than a man walking around with and not getting attacked by an angel. Especially since Necromancy is illegal, and highly frowned upon.

Point Two: This is a predominantly good setting. It isn't Ravenloft or 'dark fantasy'... this means it is not Roaringshore Tales of the Doomed Coasts (example used as an in setting 'non good' focal point only, not trying to make a jab)... it is in fact Baldur's Gate The Sword Coast Chronicles. Good guys will win more often than not... bad guys who are obvious are doomed to likely die, likely at the hands of mass mobs bearing any number of holy swords and pitchforks. If you like a darker atmosphere where good loses more often than not, I suggest Ravenloft, A real Underdark (and not PG-13 server) or something like Warhammer.

Point Three: Success and Failure is how you play. And it isn't just for good or evil characters. I mean I've seen evil characters last for ages when they play their cards right... even seen them win sometimes. For example: It wasn't the good characters who resurrected the Nemesis of the Gods, blew up half the Palace district and instigated a brief but brutal war that destroyed not one but Two main areas/villages.

Good characters who aren't careful and go to bad places can get in just as much trouble... I know from experience, and can site the examples rather briefly. Spent a week as a zombie as a result. Learned from it and avoided the area ICly since. I know it seems like good guys won the Bhaalist siege, but we really didn't. I mean the bad guys did manage to kidnap and kill two very key NPCs, and nearly brought the avatar to the Coast. All we did though was put off the inevitable because Bhaal will be back, and I am sure there are still Bhaalists willing to kill a certain saint. Who is alive only because she is now jaded, paranoid and overly cautious. If that means staying in areas known to be mostly safe (such as the fire) so be it.

The point is, good or evil can live or die just the same. Just because you hear about the public execution that added a perma-strike to an evil character and you -didn't- hear about the assassination that resulted in an equally hefty strike for the good guy... doesn't mean they don't happen.

Point Four: This is an RP server, not an Action/PVP server. PVP can happen but must have a reason. PVP will happen as a result of various actions already encompassed and covered by rules... It shouldn't happen nearly as much as it does in my opinion... but in adding more reasons to PVP... that is not going to make this a better RP server. I think the less folks worry about PVP rules and PVP mechanics and PVP as a whole... the more role play there is, be that plotting evil schemes, character development, plotting anarchy, assassinations, revenge, plotting ways to uphold good, law and protect the innocent ect... As I said though, much of this post is opinion.

In Closing: Seeing as the problem is a product of rp styles, the setting, the IC lore and so forth, changing the rules is not likely to fix it. There is no real way to make EVERYONE happy all at once. The setting could change and then so would the complaint and argument... Summons could be done away with all together... but that would open an entirely different can of worms.

In all reality the only way to really deal with a problem like this is to learn to work with what you have, making the systems work for you (which I have both seen done and done, it takes a lot of work but isn't impossible, but may be worth it if you like that sort of challenge), or change venues/outlets... which means a change of setting, style, genre, ect. It ultimately comes down to who is willing to do how much and why... no amount of rules or rule changes will fix opinions, outlooks or preferences of the mass.

[Krazy]

I think it falls on to the person whose summon was killed if he wants to initiate pvp or get out of it. Having your summon killed doesn't mean the other guy has any right to believe it's yours unless he saw you summoning it, evil summons are KoS, the other player should understand that. That should be enough reason for the summoner to retaliate for the loss on his summon.

Will all respect, I think you're missing the point - you have to give the RP out. First.

If I go around with my vampire, and someone kills her, I can't retaliate immediately. I have to give an RP out when they are killing my summons.

But, to me, if I'm an evil player that wants to "pretend to be good" this is a HUGE problem. I have to kill that person to stop my secret getting out. So you can envisage this scenario.

Good guy stumbles upon evil person with undead in tow.
Good guy starts beating up undead.
Evil guy *twiddles his moustache since at this point he can't retaliate", "I say old chap, rather rude to beat up another person's summons what what?", *readies a spell*
Good guy *looks round*, "Oh yes, quite right,old chap, sorry", takes the RP out and runs away.
Cover blown

Now, sure you can go round summon other things - but hey what sort of necromancer summons elementals? It's another OOC limitation of the fact that good and evil have to share the same areas to level up in, on the surface at any rate.

[Considerate_]

An RP out could quite simply be:

"Land a(nother) blow on my minion and I'll tear you to shreds in a whirlwind of arcane power!"

If they attack your minion, they haven't taken the RP out. Feel free to macro it, so you only have to press a single button to say it.


Useful topic: How to Create Macros and Change Text Formats

[Valefort]

I can see two scenarios for the summon problem :

• Good Joe passes by, see the vampire and attacks it immediately. If Joe Evil wants to keep his cover why doesn't he take action against his own summon ? Throw acid/fire flasks on it, dispel it ..casts some AOE on it .. attack it physically...run away screaming.
• Good Joe passes by, see the vampire and waits to know if the vampire is doing Joe Evil's biddings or not.
  If Joe Evil spots Good Joe soon enough and wants to keep his cover, time to attack the summon.
  If he doesn't spot Good Joe for some time, cover is blown, Good Joe knows the "truth" (better for Joe Evil to be disguised when he runs around with an undead in tow).

At this point it all depends on what Good Joe will do, PvP, run away, call for help, befriend Joe Evil, wait for more, etc ... too many possibilities.

[Krazy]

An RP out could quite simply be:

"Land a(nother) blow on my minion and I'll tear you to shreds in a whirlwind of arcane power!"

If they attack your minion, they haven't taken the RP out. Feel free to macro it, so you only have to press a single button to say it.


Useful topic: How to Create Macros and Change Text Formats

I already said in the scenario they take the RP out, in which case your cover is blown,

Valefort - I'm assuming here the good guys knows it is your summon, so pretence wouldn't work.

[Valefort]

Ok, sorry I'm a bit slow. I'd say first thing is to always be disguised when you have an undead summon, things are way easier like that

Still, let's say you're unmasked and Good Joe spots your undead minion, if he doesn't want to PvP fine, let him an RP out.
But this RP out has to imply that Good Joe won't know anymore/remember/speak about it, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

Something like "you're being knocked down unconscious, when you wake up you are unable to remember what happened just before"

In my opinion the RP out doesn't always have to be something as simple as "flee or fight", the RP out rule is there to protect people from unwanted PvP but taking it and running away with the information is simply an exploit of that rule and shouldn't happen.

[Krazy]

Yes, and I'm saying if they attack the summons, why in the heck are they still shielded from the PvP with an RP out?

To me, an attack on a summons is still a hostile action towards the summoner. I can't see any logical explanation for it.

If as you say, they don't attack the summons and don't want a fight, fair enough, go your own way, but it is silly that they can remember what went on.

[Valefort]

They shouldn't, don't give a simple RP out like "flee", make sure they won't know that you're a necromancer in your RP out otherwise this is just an exploit.

And for the attack on the summon .. if they know that it's your summon and they attack it I see it as a PvP consent. What else can it be ?
If they don't know it's yours it's all up to you, admit it and go the PvP route, with a RP out leaving the good guy without the info, or pretend it's not yours and help them fighting it.

[Atlas]

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[Krazy]

They shouldn't, don't give a simple RP out like "flee", make sure they won't know that you're a necromancer in your RP out otherwise this is just an exploit.

And for the attack on the summon .. if they know that it's your summon and they attack it I see it as a PvP consent. What else can it be ?
If they don't know it's yours it's all up to you, admit it and go the PvP route, with a RP out leaving the good guy without the info, or pretend it's not yours and help them fighting it.

All well and good, except currently with the rules currently: attacking summon isn't auto PvP consent - the rules say you still have to give them them the RP out... and yeah it better be good or you'll get a finger of death but still...

[Considerate_]

They cannot both take the RP out and destroy you summon, I'm not sure if we're talking past each other here but I just can't see how it adds up?

Yes, and I'm saying if they attack the summons, why in the heck are they still shielded from the PvP with an RP out?

An RP out could quite simply be:

"Land a(nother) blow on my minion and I'll tear you to shreds in a whirlwind of arcane power!"

If they attack your minion, they haven't taken the RP out. Feel free to macro it, so you only have to press a single button to say it.


Useful topic: How to Create Macros and Change Text Formats

I already said in the scenario they take the RP out, in which case your cover is blown,

Let me just try and run by the two scenarios that I understand we keep mixing up (and feel free to clarify something if I'm going in the total wrong direction here! =))

Scenario 1:
You're hostiled and press the Macro button giving the above RP out, the character decides to attack and you're now free to engage him/her/it in PvP.

Scenario 2:
You're hostiled and press the Macro button giving the above RP out, the character decides to flee and you can continue on your way.


In case of scenario 2, I'll just summarize my first post in bulletpoints.

• Wear a hood
• Concoct a plausible story, its your word against theirs
• Poke the person OOCly and through the magic of dialogue, ask them not to reveal the specifics of your characters identity as they opted to take the RP out.

[dzidek1983]

REG: Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.

BRIAN: I do!

REG: Oh, yeah? How much?

BRIAN: A lot!

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the (do-me) Judean People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah...

JUDITH: Splitters.

P.F.J.: Splitters...

FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

REG: What?

LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.

REG: We're the People's Front of Judea!

LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.

REG: People's Front! C-huh.

FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?

REG: He's over there.

P.F.J.: Splitter!

----

thats how i understand this topic

[Krazy]

They cannot both take the RP out and destroy you summon, I'm not sure if we're talking past each other here but I just can't see how it adds up?

They can attack the summons without any RP, yes?

You cannot retaliate without giving them an RP out, first.

Summons can be attacked on sight, but normal PvP rules must be followed for the summoner (the player). The owner of the summons must also follow normal PvP rules in order to attack the killer of his or her summons. (Summons include any creature that can be summoned through a spell or an ability, and that is not a Familiar or an Animal Companion: These include angels, devils, elementals, and undead, among others.)

It's entirely possible your summons is dead before you even typed your RP Out.

Poke the person OOCly and through the magic of dialogue, ask them not to reveal the specifics of your characters identity as they opted to take the RP out.

Whilst I'd hope this would be the case- there's no obligation to on the part of the person is there? And this is even after they kill your summons. Nor go find the goodie brigade and say "oh hey, there's this necromancer over there - let's go kill em"

[Valefort]

Where is the problem in that ? If they don't know it's your summon it makes perfect sense, they want to kill the vampire, not the person who is standing next to it.

Obviously for the summoner it's an hostile act against him, but for the attacker it is not, change your point of view, he is attacking the summon.

Be quick and tell them it's yours, PvP route, RP out etc... or pretend.

[Considerate_]

Hence, make a macro. I even linked to a topic in Tips & Tricks where they'll help guiding you through how to.

If you cannot press a button before they've destroyed the creature, I suggest your character takes the RP out and flees while he/she has the chance


Have you ever tried the communication part despite them not being obliged to it? Give it a go, I've often been surprised at how far two people can work together if they actually engage in a conversation about how to proceed.