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Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:41 am
by melzaren
Rainbow Prism wrote:I disagree. The monsters are quite good enough and are decent challenge. If you ask for adjustment, you are probably solo player.
In that case, I would be surprised if someone tried to adjust monsters to help you or other players to solo them. You see, I play my character and foraging treasure alone in dungeons is her main profit as amateur trader. However, there is probably difference in how we play. You see, her target is treasure. She will not kill monsters who are dangerous enough to fight or fight for sake of something nonexistent thing in their mind as xp. It is hard, many gold pieces go in preparations and resources for foraging are taking quite a coin.
However, it is fun, part of RP and not as dire as you point out. The saves are not so hard issue if you looked through wares of simple players standing on streets and peddling. Not now, though, since I cannot play.
What I say is that monsters do not need adjustment and all you need is smart play with consideration of limitations and forgetting about grinding yourself to epic level. This is not why dedicated players sit in front of stupid electronic box and push-click through one and the same polygon terrain.
The only +3 fort item I could find in the shops was around 30k. And where do I get my gold? The very dungeons I need the fort item to hunt in.
And yes, things get less and less challenging the more people you add to your party. That's no excuse to give everything disabling attacks with high DC's.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:00 am
by illithid
The only +3 fort item I could find in the shops was around 30k
You can regularly pick up rings from the auctioneer for 3-5k along with other random drops, I have said this in a previous post already
And where do I get my gold? The very dungeons I need the fort item to hunt in.
Loot drops scale with level not area (exception some bosses) so the loot you'll get from Myconids would be no different to that of the Trog Caves
Quite frankly I feel depressed at what this post has achieved. I always preferred Minsc's philosophy on squeaky wheels and hope these changes were implemented due to staff decision on balance rather than anything else. That said I'll hold nothing against anyone, change is a part of everything, and always for the good lest we stagnate.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:23 am
by Thoril
Luna wrote:This should be in the next update. Let's start with this.
melzaren wrote:First example is the snake pit. Their DC is 20+ I believe for their poison which means you will either need a con-based melee with steadfast determination or a restorative after every fight.
There are two snakes. One has DC17 for CON
The other has DC20 for STR.
I changed the DC20 one to a script that will only apply poison 50% of the time, and it will be a bit more random for what poison.
The max DC in it's list is 20.
melzaren wrote:Same goes for the mushroom spore area. They have a spore attack that requires a 20-25 fortitude save as well.
I dropped the DC a hair, and the duration a little bit on one of the spore attacks.
They did seem a tad on the high side for their CR.
melzaren wrote:o a lesser extent, there's the umberhulks. This zone isn't nearly as bad as the confusing glare the umbers use is usually short-lived and rarely will result in death. Their will save is only 15 which is still on the high end for fighters of an appropriate level, which again means fighters are out without a mind ward. My ranger could just barely handle it as I've got a 14 wis and a +3 mind-affecting set of armor I bought specifically so I could hunt there.
Lets leave these alone. Not every zone will cater to every build type.
melzaren wrote:Then there's the troglodytes which I never hunted and was never invited to hunt. By the time you can save vs their spells or make your spell-resistence checks they're worth nothing in terms of XP, and they can bring you down from 100+ to 5-10 hp in two spells
For their CR I'm a bit puzzled why they have Isaacs missle storm.
That is very hard.
And their spawn rate is very high for a caster type.
I'll make some adjustments here on spells and make it so he is not a spontaneous caster which leads to spell spamming.
Awesome work Luna
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:12 pm
by melzaren
illithid wrote:The only +3 fort item I could find in the shops was around 30k
You can regularly pick up rings from the auctioneer for 3-5k along with other random drops, I have said this in a previous post already
And where do I get my gold? The very dungeons I need the fort item to hunt in.
Loot drops scale with level not area (exception some bosses) so the loot you'll get from Myconids would be no different to that of the Trog Caves
Quite frankly I feel depressed at what this post has achieved. I always preferred Minsc's philosophy on squeaky wheels and hope these changes were implemented due to staff decision on balance rather than anything else. That said I'll hold nothing against anyone, change is a part of everything, and always for the good lest we stagnate.
I check the auctioner three or four times a day. In fact, I just finished checking him before I hopped on the forums. I don't think the auctioner is as bountiful as you believe him to be.
As for the staff decision on balance, I don't possess some sort of mind control. Luna evidently considered what was said here and took action. The only zone from what it sounds like that was significantly changed was the troglodytes, which in my opinion was the biggest problem on the list (not that mentioning the other problems was frivolous.)
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:09 pm
by melzaren
Luna wrote:This should be in the next update. Let's start with this.
melzaren wrote:First example is the snake pit. Their DC is 20+ I believe for their poison which means you will either need a con-based melee with steadfast determination or a restorative after every fight.
There are two snakes. One has DC17 for CON
The other has DC20 for STR.
I changed the DC20 one to a script that will only apply poison 50% of the time, and it will be a bit more random for what poison.
The max DC in it's list is 20.
melzaren wrote:Same goes for the mushroom spore area. They have a spore attack that requires a 20-25 fortitude save as well.
I dropped the DC a hair, and the duration a little bit on one of the spore attacks.
They did seem a tad on the high side for their CR.
melzaren wrote:o a lesser extent, there's the umberhulks. This zone isn't nearly as bad as the confusing glare the umbers use is usually short-lived and rarely will result in death. Their will save is only 15 which is still on the high end for fighters of an appropriate level, which again means fighters are out without a mind ward. My ranger could just barely handle it as I've got a 14 wis and a +3 mind-affecting set of armor I bought specifically so I could hunt there.
Lets leave these alone. Not every zone will cater to every build type.
melzaren wrote:Then there's the troglodytes which I never hunted and was never invited to hunt. By the time you can save vs their spells or make your spell-resistence checks they're worth nothing in terms of XP, and they can bring you down from 100+ to 5-10 hp in two spells
For their CR I'm a bit puzzled why they have Isaacs missle storm.
That is very hard.
And their spawn rate is very high for a caster type.
I'll make some adjustments here on spells and make it so he is not a spontaneous caster which leads to spell spamming.
I hate to labor the point here but I just went through the myconid area and got hit by a 26 and 25 fortitude save attack in the first two battles and nearly killed a team-mate. Have the changes you made not gone live yet? I'm an epic fighter with maximum fort save progression.
Also is it possible to get an explaination as to why the compound duergar's have a will save when they hit you with their axes?
// from my research online.
Spore Cloud (Ex): Each spore cloud’s effect resembles a spell cast by an 8th-level sorcerer. All spore clouds have a save DC of 14 (where applicable). A myconid can use any spore cloud effect it has access to based on Hit Dice (so, a 3 HD myconid has access to the first three types of spore clouds). Each may be used once per day per HD of the myconid. So, a 3 HD myconid could use its distress cone, reproducer cone, and rapport cloud, each three times per day.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:27 pm
by Luna
This should be in the next update. Let's start with this.
No. When you auto-download new content, it will be IG.
It's going in the next update.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:44 am
by melzaren
Luna wrote:This should be in the next update. Let's start with this.
No. When you auto-download new content, it will be IG.
It's going in the next update.
Ahh, please forgive my hastiness in not reading your post more thoroughly. *guilty, sheepish look.*
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:37 am
by melzaren
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Huge_Viper
Here is some information on huge vipers and their poison DC. I don't know if the underdark snakes are of a different variety or not.
The "huge" variety is DC14, while "large" is DC11.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:16 am
by Leo
melzaren wrote:http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Huge_Viper
Here is some information on huge vipers and their poison DC. I don't know if the underdark snakes are of a different variety or not.
The "huge" variety is DC14, while "large" is DC11.
In PnP characters' AB allows only for 3 attacks per round, not 6 like in NWN2.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:47 am
by Rainbow Prism
It is true. The monster statistics are higher than normal, so monster manual should not be used to downgrade them. It should be used if the abilities work incorrectly, like it was two years ago when slimes instead of acid damage cast cantrip that could never pierce spell resistance. Now, they do normal acid damage.
My opinion on troglodytes is that the only problem with them is how spawn rate in combination with area disposition makes them either too dense or to shallow in mass. I should note that they use lesser version of Isaac's missile storm, so only those who are below challenge rating should fear it. In fact, casters are quite weak when you get closer, so the risk is fair.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:26 am
by melzaren
Leo wrote:melzaren wrote:http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Huge_Viper
Here is some information on huge vipers and their poison DC. I don't know if the underdark snakes are of a different variety or not.
The "huge" variety is DC14, while "large" is DC11.
In PnP characters' AB allows only for 3 attacks per round, not 6 like in NWN2.
I don't see how that has anything to do with me failing my saving throws all the time. I could get twenty times the attacks I'm getting now but if a DC is 25 and my save is 15 and I have to roll it every fight, I'm still going to fail half the time and if the penalty is being totally disabled I'm going to die.
One can also reasonably argue that since the enemy also gets multiple attacks per round this advantage is taken care of in terms of balance.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:56 am
by Leo
melzaren wrote:Leo wrote:melzaren wrote:http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Huge_Viper
Here is some information on huge vipers and their poison DC. I don't know if the underdark snakes are of a different variety or not.
The "huge" variety is DC14, while "large" is DC11.
In PnP characters' AB allows only for 3 attacks per round, not 6 like in NWN2.
I don't see how that has anything to do with me failing my saving throws all the time. I could get twenty times the attacks I'm getting now but if a DC is 25 and my save is 15 and I have to roll it every fight, I'm still going to fail half the time and if the penalty is being totally disabled I'm going to die.
One can also reasonably argue that since the enemy also gets multiple attacks per round this advantage is taken care of in terms of balance.
I just think that if you decide to use PnP sources to ask for changes, you should not ask for changes that are only making things easier for your character. Running to the forums whenever you hit the wall with your character can turn into a bad habit. Underdark is considerably harder than surface realms: the number of areas is much less, mobs yield less experience, etc. Yet some players yearn for these types of challenges, taking them in stride as an inherent part of the setting. And some play on surface.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:38 am
by melzaren
I just think that if you decide to use PnP sources to ask for changes, you should not ask for changes that are only making things easier for your character. Running to the forums whenever you hit the wall with your character can turn into a bad habit. Underdark is considerably harder than surface realms: the number of areas is much less, mobs yield less experience, etc. Yet some players yearn for these types of challenges, taking them in stride as an inherent part of the setting. And some play on surface.
Yes, I can see that you've made your mind up already. That's a phenomenon called myside bias and it's well known in the scientific community. It's where you can present someone with a bunch of data and if that data contradicts what they decided is true they'll dismiss it without careful consideration.
If I rolled a cleric or wizard and just cast superior resistance, the underdark would be no more difficult than any surface area because I wouldn't have to contend with the saving throw problem anymore. This spell is of course afforded to virtually every casting class and has a 24 hour duration, so you get things like wizards with high cons and superior resistance and bear's endurance rolling around with a higher fort than the fighters.
I also fail to see how rolling a casting class that get's magically imbued immunity is a demonstration of some sort of superior ingenuity or resourcefulness. More than likely what's happening is the underdark caters perfectly to your build and that gives you an edge you don't want to loose.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:57 am
by Leo
You don't have to play caster to be strong. Ingest potions you find along the way to increase your chances of survival. I hope you will not complain as much when you finally get your wands.
Re: Underdark areas.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:04 pm
by melzaren
Leo wrote:You don't have to play caster to be strong. Ingest potions you find along the way to increase your chances of survival. I hope you will not complain as much when you finally get your wands.
Right now I'm level 22 and haven't seen a single protection from evil wand or staff in the auction hall or found any protection from evil potions in any loot drops during my entire play-time, and I check the auction-hall two or three times a day.
I suppose that unfortunate reality is going to be easily dismissed by you as more complaining. I don't mind criticism, but it actually has to be constructive. Just out of curiosity, what class is your character Leo?