Underdark areas.

[melzaren]

I've noticed there's a great deal of underdark areas that get virtually no travel because of 1 or 2 enemies which make the respective zones a nightmare to navigate. Some examples include the snake pits, the basilisks, the myconids, the troglodytes, and to a lesser extent the crypts.

By the time you're able to handle these zones and their saving throws (I'm almost epic and I fail 50% of the time in some of them), they're not worth visiting anymore. People will say they're there for parties and to necessitate grouping, but the reality is that even in groups people just farm the areas without all these head-ache monsters. They farm the goblins, duergar, and umbers. The umber tunnels are STILL a nightmare but at least their saving throws are approaching a number that is reachable by players intended to hunt there.

The underdark feels extremely small when you can only bounce between 1 or 2 places and Sshamath. In my opinion these zones need to be tweaked or they'll continue to go largely unused, as they have been.

[Kenshin]

I am not certain about your build or your style of play but most of the areas you speak of should be fairly manageable with proper preparation (or possibly via party play).

I would urge you to repost under the Tips & Tricks forums for more specific advice regarding both builds and how to play certain opponents/areas.

[Iso]

Yeah, my only significant UD char soloed all those areas for profit and exp...

[melzaren]

Well now you know why 95% of the UD is comprised by monks and clerics, wizards and their respective subclasses.

I'm a ranger by the way. This server seems to have it flipped around in that originally in D&D fighters were the meat and potatoes of the front line battle, and now it's wizards and clerics. I saw a warlock solo the duergar compound with some absurd ungodly AC.

I'd really love to know how you managed to get a 25 fortitude save vs the snakes reletively easily at a level anywhere near approaching what the area was designed for. I'm a level 19 ranger with maximum fort progression and I get 12-15 xp there now and I fail 50% of the time with my fortitude save.

Ultimately, having to visit the tips and tricks area to make a monk or cleric munchkin build just to go hunting is approaching RP backwards.

[illithid]

I dunno melzaren, my level 13 tanarruk used to solo basilisks and snakes, he was just a fighter, I think as Kenshin suggested you may want to post in the Tips and Tricks for specifics on certain battles, but if you want a quick tip:

If you need more fort saves to guarantee succeeding on DC's then I would say find some items with +fort or universal saves, they all stack together with the exception of left and right rings (only the highest counts) so you can quite easily get +many saves with:

+2 fort boots
+3 fort ring
+2 saves ring
+2 fort belt
+2 universal helm
+11 base saves (19 ranger)
+5 fort (constitution 20 with potion of bears etc if needed)
=27 fort save

I have no idea what your build is, but in most cases a little tailored gear for specific areas should suit you fine and if you find a friend who'll throw a spell or two on you you'll easily hit 30 without much effort at lvl 19. Just carry a ring and a pair of boots that you use only for these areas, it also allows you more RP for doing such. I often put on a different cloak if I'm going to the compound or the netherese ruins, and RP the fact that it protects me from flames.

hey farm the goblins, duergar, and umbers.

Goblins mainly because of the spawn rate
Duergar because nothing else gives any higher xp so if its a choice between 9 xp for a duegar or 1xp for a myconid...
Umbers, who farms umbers?
personally I would say the myconids, snakes etc are far easier than soloing illithids or Oghrann

I saw a warlock solo the duergar compound with some absurd ungodly AC.

That one is a special case

[melzaren]

I dunno melzaren, my level 13 tanarruk used to solo basilisks and snakes, he was just a fighter, I think as Kenshin suggested you may want to post in the Tips and Tricks for specifics on certain battles, but if you want a quick tip:

If you need more fort saves to guarantee succeeding on DC's then I would say find some items with +fort or universal saves, they all stack together with the exception of left and right rings (only the highest counts) so you can quite easily get +many saves with:

+2 fort boots
+3 fort ring
+2 saves ring
+2 fort belt
+2 universal helm
+11 base saves (19 ranger)
+5 fort (constitution 20 with potion of bears etc if needed)
=27 fort save

I have no idea what your build is, but in most cases a little tailored gear for specific areas should suit you fine and if you find a friend who'll throw a spell or two on you you'll easily hit 30 without much effort at lvl 19. Just carry a ring and a pair of boots that you use only for these areas, it also allows you more RP for doing such. I often put on a different cloak if I'm going to the compound or the netherese ruins, and RP the fact that it protects me from flames.

hey farm the goblins, duergar, and umbers.

Goblins mainly because of the spawn rate
Duergar because nothing else gives any higher xp so if its a choice between 9 xp for a duegar or 1xp for a myconid...
Umbers, who farms umbers?
personally I would say the myconids, snakes etc are far easier than soloing illithids or Oghrann

I saw a warlock solo the duergar compound with some absurd ungodly AC.

That one is a special case

These items you list aren't easy to get and I'm a first-time player who hasn't had the luxury of recreating and muling old equiptment. I also don't have the gold to have a different set of saving throw items for every zone I go to. That, by the way, is another major failing in 3rd edition: The need for every player to carry around a golf-bag of weapons and a brief-case full of armor and rings they switch on and off from opponent to opponent. It also makes the focal point of the game not about rp or adventure, but about accumulating trinkets, which makes things feel... MMO'ish.

My actual base saving throw should count for something instead of 60+% of my saving throws coming from items. In your scenario, a full-saving-throw build needs to get a 60% boost to his primary saving through from items (which decreases my combat effectiveness by taking up wear slots.) just to handle things that I should be able to handle with my primary fort progression anyway.

I have no doubt I'll hit thirty, I'd just love to see more than 2 or 3 zones by the time I get there.

We can of course shift the focus away from just fortitude. Should I get a series of +2 and +3 will save items as well? Can you estimate the total value in gold for those two sets, just so I can travel places with my fighter and fight like he's meant to?

[Luna]

If you can be more specific.. we can try to look.
Your first post was a bit to broad for me to look at anything in particular.


Also one thing to add. In general the UD was made harder than the surface I believe.
It's not supposed to be easy.

[illithid]

My tanarukk was the first player I had here, and I don't mule, the worst I do is carry over items if I'm RCR'ing because of a build stuff up or such to a rebuild of the same character. I do remember grinding for gold though on my tanarukk so that I could afford things that would get me to 16 fort to get through the basilisks. Looking at things in hindsight however you can most likely get +10 saves from the auctioneer for 15k all up, if you are patient.

My actual base saving throw should count for something instead of 60+% of my saving throws coming from items. In your scenario, a full-saving-throw build needs to get a 60% boost to his primary saving through from items (which decreases my combat effectiveness by taking up wear slots.) just to handle things that I should be able to handle with my primary fort progression anyway

My scenario wasn't a full saving throw build the cap from items is +20, it was merely informative. And you don't have to be good at combat to be a ranger, why can't you be tough and resilient? why are you maxing your inventory for AB/AC? ..isn't that exactly what you are suggesting you don't want to be doing to accommodate saving throws?

The underdark is a perilous place, full of perilous things, survival is an honest goal, mastery is a dream

[melzaren]

If you can be more specific.. we can try to look.
Your first post was a bit to broad for me to look at anything in particular.


Also one thing to add. In general the UD was made harder than the surface I believe.
It's not supposed to be easy.

First example is the snake pit. Their DC is 20+ I believe for their poison which means you will either need a con-based melee with steadfast determination or a restorative after every fight. Same goes for the mushroom spore area. They have a spore attack that requires a 20-25 fortitude save as well. Like I said, I'm level 19 ranger and my base unmodified fort is 11, so any zone in which I need to make a 25 fortitude save every fight is going to get passed over. You needn't take my word for it, simply log in and observe how frequently these zones get hunted in comparison to others. People here will give you circumstantial cases about how they do just fine there, but I implore you to see the reality of it yourself, as there's always going to be someone out there with a munchkin build who'll say "I can do it no problem!", but that doesn't tell the whole story.

I respect the argument for realism, but it's not very realistic when 95% of the underdark population is killing deurgar thralls all day long because all the surrounding zones are unmanageable or offer no real incentive to visit. Another thing that surprised me is that the
construct helmed horrors are more difficult than the duergar they block. In otherwords there's no logical progression through the umbers to the duergar mines, in terms of CR. The duergar mines of course also have DC20+ will saves which of course is a major hit to fighters.

Then, to a lesser extent, there's the umberhulks. This zone isn't nearly as bad as the confusing glare the umbers use is usually short-lived and rarely will result in death. Their will save is only 15 which is still on the high end for fighters of an appropriate level, which again means fighters are out without a mind ward. My ranger could just barely handle it as I've got a 14 wis and a +3 mind-affecting set of armor I bought specifically so I could hunt there.

Then there's the troglodytes which I never hunted and was never invited to hunt. By the time you can save vs their spells or make your spell-resistence checks they're worth nothing in terms of XP, and they can bring you down from 100+ to 5-10 hp in two spells.

Really the only fighter-friendly place that doesn't require a totally twinked out character with an end-game wardrobe is the starting areas, goblins, displacers (okay, they've got baby umbers there too), beetles.

The slimes have paralyzing saves too. The basilisks have an insta-death if you roll a 1. Not many places you can go where you don't constantly have to save or be up a very fecal creek without a paddle.

Then there's the crypt, in which virtually everything inside but the skeletons will poison or disease you or level drain you, so, that's another zone you're out on unless you've got steadfast determination and you're a con build with a slew of fort items.

[melzaren]

My tanarukk was the first player I had here, and I don't mule, the worst I do is carry over items if I'm RCR'ing because of a build stuff up or such to a rebuild of the same character. I do remember grinding for gold though on my tanarukk so that I could afford things that would get me to 16 fort to get through the basilisks. Looking at things in hindsight however you can most likely get +10 saves from the auctioneer for 15k all up, if you are patient.

My actual base saving throw should count for something instead of 60+% of my saving throws coming from items. In your scenario, a full-saving-throw build needs to get a 60% boost to his primary saving through from items (which decreases my combat effectiveness by taking up wear slots.) just to handle things that I should be able to handle with my primary fort progression anyway

My scenario wasn't a full saving throw build the cap from items is +20, it was merely informative. And you don't have to be good at combat to be a ranger, why can't you be tough and resilient? why are you maxing your inventory for AB/AC? ..isn't that exactly what you are suggesting you don't want to be doing to accommodate saving throws?

The underdark is a perilous place, full of perilous things, survival is an honest goal, mastery is a dream

Well, I'm maxing out my AC and AB because if I junk all my AC items for saving throws I'll not get poisoned and instead take a ton of damage every fight as I'll have no AB and AC to kill the enemy with.

Also there is the glaringly obvious fact that AB and AC are what makes a fighter a fighter. In traditional pen-and-paper D&D you don't have to make a saving through every single encounter or be virtually completely neutralized.

[Luna]

melzaren, I don't have time to look at them tonight, but I will try to look at this over the next few days.

[illithid]

Their DC is 20+

It's 17, with the effect being 2d4 (?) con damage, which is applied at current health rather than full health.

20-25 fortitude save as well

25 for the myconids, 26 for the puffers, effect confusion

troglodytes which I never hunted and was never invited to hunt. By the time you can save vs their spells or make your spell-resistence checks they're worth nothing in terms of XP, and they can bring you down from 100+ to 5-10 hp in two spells.

They are CR8? I think and cast magic missile/lesser missile storm, as would a level 8 wizard

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, my point to this conversation is that in a low/medium magic PW with readily available potion stores etc these are balanced to the CR, but that's just my opinion and I've played a fair bit of the game.

[Kenshin]

Melzaren, I understand that you are annoyed still, I would point out that when others are offering constructive ideas, it is best to take them in the spirit in which they were given.

As Luna said the UD is challenging and it is supposed to be as per Forgotten Realms lore. Illithid is correct, you have to cast away standard notions of what should and should not work and adapt to the circumstances. Sshamath is well stocked with potions, scrolls, as well as all sorts of useful gear. Some of these things are, in fact, quite reasonably priced as well. There is no reason to go out on expeditions under-armed or under-equipped.

Ranger is not an especially apt class in the UD as tunnels and caverns are not treated as outdoor areas. Perhaps this will change once the cavestalker prestige class is deployed. A single class ranger is a poor choice for the setting, there is no way around that fact. In the given environment classes like fighters, rangers, and to a lesser extent rogues have to prove adept at various disciplines. Yes, that means that multiclassing is more or less a must if you want to be able to do solo adventuring in the Underdark.

Which brings us to Tips & Tricks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with turning to the wider community for ideas, inspiration, and broadened understanding of game and build mechanics. Let's face it, character design is one of the strong suits of NWN2.

I hope that upon further examination you will see this time of frustration as an opportunity to delve into another part of the game that perhaps you have not yet become fully conversant with.

Cheers.

[Iso]

The reality is I've got a level 8 Wizard that can solo the Umberhulks fine, while Troglodytes can kill her in one single hit. It's very much so a game of rock-paper-scissors.

The Crypts need a Fort save of around 15 or 17, then whatever Will saves you need to resist Fear (or take one of the many classes/PrCs with immunity to Fear), and once you have that you're set.

Beetles level 1-4, Displacers to 14, Crypts to 22, and then you're on your own if you haven't made any friends. Seriously, get some people who can buff you. Their spells will last an hour or two and shore up all your character's weak spots.

[TheSpaniard]

Mioz, Inxun knows all, do not argue!

Nah, just kidding, good points but all and all there are viable strategies to counter these problems you mention. The Crypts are a great place to level, they have a relatively easy boss which at your level will offer good experience, it offers a good variety of monster, plus loot. Will it be easy as a Ranger? No, but you have to take things slow and adapt your style of play in the Under Dark. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten my arse kicked, but that part of the fun. I enjoy a challenge and I don't merely play to get to level 30, but to improve. There is a lot of room for improvement too in this game, which does not consist of getting the best gear. A lot people will tell you that it isn't true, but these are generally the expert builders, they are generally lazy people who rely on the optimization of their build too often. Believe me, Mioz.

I agree with you that hunting for the top gear for your character gets boring, I only did it for a while because Shur was a "merchant." I rarely kept gear for myself. He wasn't a very good one but, he tried, dammit! The point is, that there are other ways to improve, and that shaping the way you think about things can open up some doors. If you think of it as grinding, it will be slow and monotonous. Maybe think of an IC reason for your character to be going through here, or maybe go through multiple areas to gain experience, as an attempt to grab loot from places. Also, do not underestimate the production of RP exp. I know you RP a lot already, but don't be afraid to open up some and emote.

On that note the crypts are a lot fun to go through it and RP adventure, since it makes sense that Undead area always appearing. Mechanically, Deathward works very well here as well. All and all it's a great place to wipe out abominations.

On this note, I do have one complaint about the UD, for which there is no solution player side: the lack of epic areas. There are only two real places for Epic levels, especially after level 25, and that's the Compound/Lava Lake or the Wilds with the Drider. You may count the Netherese Ruins as one, but i'd just call you a mad man, and IC it doesn't make sense because the risk vs reward is completely discombobulated in this area. It's only good for one thing, going to the surface.