Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Regardless of who you directed it to, it makes an assumption. How do you know that dzidek doesn't play or has ever played a cleric?

And here's a fact: Aelcar, dzidek and me are all part of the QC team. Are you here implying that we don't test clerics?

I read through the topic and regarding the Epic Spells vs Ability Increases I'd have to agree with Carbondk, at least in his context of play.

For an arcanist, taking Great Charisma/Intelligence is almost always better than most of Epic Spells (Vampiric Feast being the exception) because you have offensive spellbook. Cleric casters are much more limited in that way, so there is great incentive in taking most of the epic spells.

Not to mention that your benchmark spell, Implosion, has innate bonus to DC which you would be hard pressed to reach on a Wizard with Wail of Banshee, for instance.

Hopefully we'll see Hierophant PrC which would greatly help with those kinds of builds, but until then I'd definitely build and play my cleric (or even caster Druid) like Carbondk does.

i am sorry but i cant agree with the fact you say clerics dont have offensive spells or lack them

sure they dont have a great deal of transmutraion offensive spells or conjuration (SoV and exception)

as a matter of fact a cleric can only be an evoker or a necromancer really

especially the evoker is not limited
and there are some trully great spells for him in the book

thats why i think its better to pump the DC's
cos even if you lvl 9 spells have sufficient DC then those lvl 5 or 4 are in the same time only average

and you will have mostly the lower level ones due how to spells slots work

furthermore

cgoing high WIS even so more important due to bonus spell slots... droping 4 or more spell slots is really a big thing

well unless you want to play a kinda "gish" like cleric, you melee and throw from time to time some offensive nuke

Thanks for the support alfa.

Been playing a DC cleric here on the server for 5 years continuously now. Forgive me for saying that I think I know a little bit more about such a build than you guys in QC.

As for arguments regarding the superiority of epic spells on a cleric, please refer to my earlier post. I believe that settles that.

PS. Numbers are good, but there's such a thing as ecological validity. Never forget that.

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote: For an arcanist, taking Great Charisma/Intelligence is almost always better than most of Epic Spells (Vampiric Feast being the exception) because you have offensive spellbook. Cleric casters are much more limited in that way, so there is great incentive in taking most of the epic spells.

It's deceptively so. Even as a Cleric, it's usually a good thing to limit yourself to one Epic Spell. You can forego the ESF and pick two in certain cases (ie: Evil Clerics with Vampiric Feast, that also want a 3xday Epic Spell), but it's something to consider carefully. Taking more is detrimental. Clerics DO have an offensive spellbook, and it's not as bad as you think, considering they can easily melee: their spells dont have to kill outright, like an arcanist's.

Not to mention that your benchmark spell, Implosion, has innate bonus to DC which you would be hard pressed to reach on a Wizard with Wail of Banshee, for instance.

You really want to push it, regardless.

Hopefully we'll see Hierophant PrC which would greatly help with those kinds of builds, but until then I'd definitely build and play my cleric (or even caster Druid) like Carbondk does.

Hierophant will help, yes . Caster Druid has nothing to do with Cleric, careful!.
As for Carbondk, if it works for him, I dont see why change it. If it doesnt for others, then I have plenty of advice in the matter.

dzidek1983 wrote:cgoing high WIS even so more important due to bonus spell slots... droping 4 or more spell slots is really a big thing

Thats a myth. DCs aside, the difference of 32WIS + Prodigy with 30WIS + Prodigy is an 8 and 4lvl slot. If that is a big deal or not, everyone of us can make his own mind. With the two epic feats you free, you can take epic focus keeping the DCs of your targeted spells the same and an epic spell.

dzidek1983 wrote:well unless you want to play a kinda "gish" like cleric, you melee and throw from time to time some offensive nuke

Clerics (Even DC based ) are supposed to be gishes. They have medium BAB, Heavy armor and shield, excellent buffing spells. Their limited - in number of spell slots - spellbook makes cracking a skull open using a weapon all that more important. So does Epic spells which deal a lot of damage. Finding the right balance between DCs, Epic spells and melee efficiency is the way to play a DC cleric. In my view, I think carbondk has it right

Once again around the merry-go-round:

My epic spell cleric will squish your +2 DC cleric in PvP. Anytime. Yours will also have a significant drawback against many bosses, especially those that are elemental immune/resistant. Mine will also have more versatility, yours will be a 2-trick pony.

Mine will have 3 greater ruins, 3 lightning storms, a vamp feast, a damnation and a heal/undead killer. That's 9 spells with epic size DCs and many of them irresistable/unblockable. You will have +4 more WIS, thus gain one more level 3 + 4 + 6 + 7 spell slot, aproximately, from what I can deduct.

Unless you pick a very specific deity, odds are most of your so-called divine spell book blasting spells will consist of fire (fire storm, flame strike), implosion (negated by shadow shield/death ward, all constructs and undeads), and some meagre divine damage spells (flame strike, fire storm, hammer of gods & searing light). Meaning that something with high enough saves and/or death immunity and fire immunity will be impervious to all your maxed DC spells. Think of that a moment. That's many of the epic bosses on the server, and most epic PCs too.

And as for being a 'part time blaster' and 'part time gish' as was suggested, that again shows a lack of understanding of the divine spell book alltogether.
My blaster cleric has mediocre STR and uses a plain ol' warhammer. All her focus is into using spells. BUT - give her extended versions of battletide, divine power, divine favour, stone body and recitation, and watch her eat her way through most of the epic bosses on the server. Going melee or 'gish' as a cleric is not optional - it is mandatory. Unless you want to throw all your spells about and wait 400+ secs on another rest - especially lacking any epic spells.

dzidek you mentioned evocation and necromancy.

Necro I'm not even going to consider. Your best spells for this school are Destruction and Slay living. Single targets, mediocre DCs, and blocked by simple long-duration buffs like death ward and shadow shield - and all undead(!) and constructs. Energy drain doesn't count, that's only a debuffer, not a killer, and it's a no-save, thus your necro specialized cleric will be no better at casting it than my evocation cleric.
Going necro as a cleric is a huge pigeonhole suitable for nothing but RP, and it would truly be gimping your character.

Evocation then. As mentioned, my implosion has a DC of 41. I highly doubt your DC of 43 will do a world of difference. Flame strike/fire storm are all mediocre in damage, and half can be blocked by a simple energy immunity. They can also be evaded right out by most rogue types. Blade barrier is another spell, it's very situational, most player chars will simply avoid the area, mobs will fall to it, but then again they fall pretty easily to my -2 DC blade barrier as well.
Hammer of gods is a mediocre damage dealing spell, and has low DCs. You having +2 more DC on that one will hardly help in epic areas, besides, many things are mind immune and then your +2 DC will mean didly squat.

I, however, will have my ice storms (no save/DC), polar rays (no save/DC), and chain lightning (only spell with save/DC) and all my 9 uses of epic spells, most of them area affecting.

Again, my build with 2 less DC and most of the epic spells will be more versatile, more powerful in a quick burst, less easily defeated by various immunities, and longer lasting than yours with +2 more DC and +1 spell slot of levels 3, 4, 6 & 7.

Thats a myth. DCs aside, the difference of 32WIS + Prodigy with 30WIS + Prodigy is an 8 and 4lvl slot. If that is a big deal or not, everyone of us can make his own mind. With the two epic feats you free, you can take epic focus keeping the DCs of your targeted spells the same and an epic spell.@m

im talking more like 30 WIS compared to 36 WIS, thas more of a gap

Clerics (Even DC based ) are supposed to be gishes. They have medium BAB, Heavy armor and shield, excellent buffing spells. Their limited - in number of spell slots - spellbook makes cracking a skull open using a weapon all that more important. So does Epic spells which deal a lot of damage. Finding the right balance between DCs, Epic spells and melee efficiency is the way to play a DC cleric. In my view, I think carbondk has it right

you see we talk here about blasters
if you go gish route then buffs tak a huge part o your spell slots
hence you loose your blasting power due to limiting spells
hence thats why i posted clerics have spell slot problems

most people design a cleric blaster with a melee plan B in mind, so they go on and memorize all those aid, Bless, Divine Power, Battletide spells while they could be blasters and hame more Hammer of Faith, Ice Storm, Chain Lightning, etc.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Clerics (Even DC based ) are supposed to be gishes. They have medium BAB, Heavy armor and shield, excellent buffing spells. Their limited - in number of spell slots - spellbook makes cracking a skull open using a weapon all that more important. So does Epic spells which deal a lot of damage. Finding the right balance between DCs, Epic spells and melee efficiency is the way to play a DC cleric. In my view, I think carbondk has it right

That's the essence, and spoken like someone who's actually played a DC cleric, and not just looked at one on paper.

Carbondk...

yes your right in most cases
but why not look at your flaws

you 3 epic storms are negated by 1 energy immunity and those are the highest DC epic spells you have, so f.ex. my WIS based stormlord will be totally immune

Damnation is nice but it wont do anything to a cleric cos its will save and frankly i have over 40 base save

greater ruin is magical dmg but it also has a fortitde save for 1/2 and it has 25+10+1 = ca 36DC easily beaten in any cleric PvP

we are both immune to implosion so its out of the picture
you aint doing nothing to me mass heal

amd Vamp Feast i have on my own and i have a higher DC on it then you do

ofc in PvE your epic spells are more usefull, cos mobs dont have those defenses

but in PvP besides Vampiric, they are not the killers you think

you get more in PvP from your Frost Mage spells like Ice storm or Polar Ray

I'm talking about cleric vs cleric here. Not stormlords. Bring in all sorts of PRCs into the equation and it's not a comparason of epic spells vs. +4 WIS any more.
But just for fun, Stormlord you say, that means you'll have a caster level of 30 with prac spellcaster. I'll however have CL 32 with prac spellcaster and Warpriest. That's +1 more DC to me, free of charge.

Even so. Moving on. Vamp feast yes. Kills you outright at least on the roll of 1 if you have huge fort saves. Same with damnation vs. will. That means 2 chances in a row to one-click kill you, no protection but the save. Wanna take the chances?

What will your stormlord do to me though? Remember I'll be able to cast immunity fire and electricity as well, and lots of physical immunity from stone body. Why are you even taking stormlord levels on a DC cleric build? So I'll laugh off all your fire storms, flame strikes, chain lightnings (evasion and high reflex), and your implosions (death ward). Also you won't be able to put a scratch in me melee-wise.

So summing up. I'll have 2 chances to kill you outright, and at least be able to cause you irresistable damage ~100 from ruin, even if you save. Give it a couple of mins, and I'll give you another ruin. Dice rolls are dice rolls, but on the paper, my cleric/warpriest will indeed stand a better chance than your cleric/stormlord with no epic spells.

And as you say yourself, in PvE I'll have an even larger advantage, since I know what immunities the various mobs have and can exploit that for max effect.

Carbondk wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:Clerics (Even DC based ) are supposed to be gishes. They have medium BAB, Heavy armor and shield, excellent buffing spells. Their limited - in number of spell slots - spellbook makes cracking a skull open using a weapon all that more important. So does Epic spells which deal a lot of damage. Finding the right balance between DCs, Epic spells and melee efficiency is the way to play a DC cleric. In my view, I think carbondk has it right

That's the essence, and spoken like someone who's actually played a DC cleric, and not just looked at one on paper.

I agree that a good half of your spells need to be buffs and healing/contingencies.

I just play the Cleric differently: if he's good, then it's Greater Ruin or Lightning Storm and ESF, if he's Evil, then it's VF and GR/ELS. The rest is Epic Wisdom. The reason is, I usually open on mobs with one spell, then I finish them melee. That spell needs to deal a lot of dmg, and if they pass their saves, it wont. In my experience both in PnP and NWN, this saves a lot of spells and gives me a lot of options. Using Greater Ruin for 80 dmg per hit or 160 is not the same thing, and 15-20% more chances to defeat the mobs' saves is a huge deal when you have a lot of combat ahead of you.

An Implosion of 41 or 43 wont make much of a difference in PvP, agreed. Most people will save it or be immune, and those who wont save the 43 (sneaks, for instance), wouldnt have saved the 41 either . However, for bosses it's a pretty huge deal: with 43, an Energy Drain is likely enough to guarantee the death of the Frost King, for instance, and with 41 you'll likely need a shot from your Enervation Wand already, to be reasonably sure.

There are many ways to tackle a problem, even from the same premises. You might think, being an armored caster with lots of HP and healing, that it's better to have 9 uses of epic spells and a few less regular spells all at lower DCs, because you can afford casting twice in case the result is not satisfactory. I would rather pick 4 uses of epic spells with +15/20% chance of full effect, plus 4 more regular spells that likely will be re-buffs and heals and generally some +3/4 DC on my favourite school's spells.

The "need" for a certain approach is, as I was saying before, deceptive.

Also, in PvP none of the things we are discussing here mean anything against anybody half competent, so I wont talk about PvP. This is 90% PvE-DM Events. In PvP, WIS Clerics are kinda rubbish anyway you slice it .

Aelcar wrote:In PvP, WIS Clerics are kinda rubbish anyway you slice it .

That's true at least =D Though gear, right domains and some knowledge/experience does make up for some of it.

I'll agree that you can skip out on some of the epic spells. Damnation for instance is mediocre. But it has its uses, no least in PvP (to make up for the statement I just quoted you on). And frankly it's just the epitome of an epic spell in my book, and has too much umph-factor to miss out on.

So yeah, you could skip 1 or 2 epic spells and go for +2 WIS and still be very viable. No doubt.

But saying that picking epic spells as a Dc cleric is 'gimping the character' is a statement beyond wrong. Both approaches are valid, and frankly, I'd go for versatility over raw power any day, if you want to be able to solo the contents here as a cleric.

Also, Aelcar, you won't be able to go +3/4 DC above Irini. I have 5 epic spells and an even WIS with owl's. Meaning you would - at best - be able to take +4 WIS feats and get +2 more DC. Current Irini version has the highest possible evocation DC reachable as a cleric on the server, minus 2 (if you took the +4 WIS feats).

Carbondk wrote:I'm talking about cleric vs cleric here. Not stormlords. Bring in all sorts of PRCs into the equation and it's not a comparason of epic spells vs. +4 WIS any more.
But just for fun, Stormlord you say, that means you'll have a caster level of 30 with prac spellcaster. I'll however have CL 32 with prac spellcaster and Warpriest. That's +1 more DC to me, free of charge.

Even so. Moving on. Vamp feast yes. Kills you outright at least on the roll of 1 if you have huge fort saves. Same with damnation vs. will. That means 2 chances in a row to one-click kill you, no protection but the save. Wanna take the chances?

What will your stormlord do to me though? Remember I'll be able to cast immunity fire and electricity as well, and lots of physical immunity from stone body. Why are you even taking stormlord levels on a DC cleric build? So I'll laugh off all your fire storms, flame strikes, chain lightnings (evasion and high reflex), and your implosions (death ward). Also you won't be able to put a scratch in me melee-wise.

So summing up. I'll have 2 chances to kill you outright, and at least be able to cause you irresistable damage ~100 from ruin, even if you save. Give it a couple of mins, and I'll give you another ruin. Dice rolls are dice rolls, but on the paper, my cleric/warpriest will indeed stand a better chance than your cleric/stormlord with no epic spells.

And as you say yourself, in PvE I'll have an even larger advantage, since I know what immunities the various mobs have and can exploit that for max effect.

i though you had frost mage levels.. if not your frost spells also are uselss in PvP cos of another simple energy immunity
im not here to say you play a bad build, i just want to say you cant be that sure that having more epic spells will be a sure winner ws a DC cleric

i dont fail any save at 1... yes i have steadfast, dont you??

damnation cant touch me cos im mind immune and as i said you dont have the DC to touch me on a will save and i dont fail on 1's

you only have greater ruin (that any cleric can just out heal since you have limited uses per day and you cant quicken 2 in a round) and you have vampiric feats that i also have.. with better DC on it

Ps. forget stormlord i thought you have a multiclass too... cast EI electricity and epic storms are of no use...

Carbondk wrote:

Aelcar wrote:In PvP, WIS Clerics are kinda rubbish anyway you slice it .

That's true at least =D Though gear, right domains and some knowledge/experience does make up for some of it.

Absolutely, good gameplay and experience always make a difference. It's your inability to dispel that makes things so hard for you: you cant touch anybody warded with Divine Wards, because they arent on the Breach List. That's the problem.

I'll agree that you can skip out on some of the epic spells. Damnation for instance is mediocre. But it has its uses, no least in PvP (to make up for the statement I just quoted you on). And frankly it's just the epitome of an epic spell in my book, and has too much flavour to miss out on.

Sure, you can pick it. It's NOT useless. I was talking about objective efficiency, but a good player can alway play suboptimal builds and come out on top, enjoying the flavor of them as well. Personally, I rarely if ever play optimal builds, so you'll get no objection from me .

But saying that picking epic spells as a Dc cleric is 'gimping the character' is a statement beyond wrong. Both approaches are valid, and frankly, I'd go for versatility over raw power any day, if you want to be able to solo the contents here as a cleric.

Gimp is a big word. Most of all talking about Divine Casters. As I said before, if you like it and it works for you, why change?