Request Half Orc Love

[Invoker]

That is a perfect description of the demented mindset of a character who is Chaotic Evil.

A nihilist, narcissist and sociopath with little or no empathy.

A character whose moral spectrum is so unbalanced that the amount of regard he shows for those around him is not much more than what a normal person would show an Ant.

Stop flattering me, or I'll start thinking you're asking me out.

[thids]

Nonsense, rules are there to weed out the weak!

[mrm3ntalist]

Especially when compared to races such as Wood Elf with fantastic physical stats and Keen Senses, bonuses to Listen/Spot and couple of immunities to spells.

What are CON and INT considered. I dont have to explain the importance of CON on a melee build, while the penalty on INT can be 66 less skill points compared to a human. Any build that can be made as a wood elf, can be made better or at least the same as a human. Their favored class - ranger - included.

On a server where many feats and skills are introduced, an extra feat and extra skill points go a long way.

As many said before, the grass is greener on the other side...

Make an FS/BG-Pal-Cleric better than a human, or a bard/EDM or a tank, or a wizard...

[mrm3ntalist]

If I change this

A character whose moral spectrum is so unbalanced that the amount of regard he shows for those aroundnot close to him is not much more than what a normal person would show an Ant.

That is Kael right there

[Thorsson]

Well, one thing that makes the half-orcs at the bottom of the food chain is that every other ECL+0 race gets +-0 with abilities. Like, a dwarf gets +2 in con, -2 cha. Or wood elves get +2 in two abilities, -2 in two others.

This is often true for ECL +1 races as well, with only aasimar, tiefling and duergars breaking the pattern. ECL+1 seems to be because of other bonuses added onto this I guess? In NWN2, it's kind of unfair though since all the genasi but earth are arguably poorer than the closest similar race, at least from a mechanical standpoint. I suppose the only reason to keep +1 is lore, to dissuade people from picking them so they remain rare.

I wonder if adding reckless offensive to Half-Orcs could make up for it. To be fair though, there are other races that could use some tuning too if we wanted to do this out of fairness.

1. Compare HOrc to Earth Genasi. So the EG gets an extra +1 to Con, but he doesn't get Blooded, and he gets ECL1. Is the HORc really so badly off? The one issue I can see is their favoured class, but FC is a problem for several races and many classes. And Earth fare better than Water and Fire Genasi.
2. Are HElves so great? IMO having some +s and -s to stats means that Race is particularly suited to some types of build and that's an advantage.
3. Nowhere does it state that all ECL0 Races should be equal. Really, this is a dumb argument given that there's such disparity between classes, which seems only likely to grow as certain equalising bugs get fixed.

[Atlas]

3. Nowhere does it state that all ECL0 Races should be equal. Really, this is a dumb argument given that there's such disparity between classes, which seems only likely to grow as certain equalising bugs get fixed.

It is logical to assume they are meant to be equal for many reasons - commercialism and Wizards of the Coast wanting their product to be a success back when they sold it being the least of them.

The ECL rating is the measuring scale.

If you believe the opposite then show me where the food chain is explored for the mundane races of the setting.

1. Compare HOrc to Earth Genasi. So the EG gets an extra +1 to Con, but he doesn't get Blooded, and he gets ECL1. Is the HORc really so badly off? The one issue I can see is their favoured class, but FC is a problem for several races and many classes. And Earth fare better than Water and Fire Genasi.
2. Are HElves so great? IMO having some +s and -s to stats means that Race is particularly suited to some types of build and that's an advantage.

It was never imgained that the races and favoured class system would have to take into account the unbalanced nature of the various multiclass combinations in Nwn2.

The races were more or less ripped from a Pnp Source book filled with many more rules and regulations that would almost certainly disqualify most the multiclassed combinations you see in this game.

The Half Orc has favoured class Barbarian for instance.

Because in the original source book the Barbarian was supposed to be able to stand on his own legs among all competition in regards to having the same amount of strengths and weaknesses.

Given the lore surrounding Half Orcs and how that is their favoured class and it was and is assumed most Half Orc players would play Barbarians, it was meant to be an advantage.

Such variables are clearly unbalanced in this game we are all playing and debating over here.


The only thing you have said that I agree with is that the Genasi races are underpowered also.

To me they are all very barren of game mechanics given that they are ECL+1 races within the setting.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Lol invoker you pretty much described champion. It doesn't have to do with alignment but rather refers to someone who is the best. My point is it gets dull when all the characters are humanists.

[Invoker]

Lol invoker you pretty much described champion. It doesn't have to do with alignment but rather refers to someone who is the best. My point is it gets dull when all the characters are humanists.

I disagree. Characters SHOULD be paragons. Otherwise, you might as well go play "City Watchman", "Citizen" or "Barmaid".

If I have to play something that can do less than me IRL, then it doesn't make all that much sense to me. My character has to be someone that is not necessarily the most powerful overall, but that has something "unique" that he can do better than pretty much anyone else, with very few even in his league. That way, there is a reason why people look for him specifically to do things, and not "Passer-by 2".

If then people want to play "Replaceable Guard", "Disposable Farmer" or "Average Citizen" because otherwise "it gets dull", then good for them . Definitely not my thing though, and it wouldn't disturb me to be surrounded by like-minded individuals.

[Uther3867]

If then people want to play "Replaceable Guard", "Disposable Farmer" or "Average Citizen" because otherwise "it gets dull", then good for them . Definitely not my thing though, and it wouldn't disturb me to be surrounded by like-minded individuals.

That's what The Sims is for

as for me i have a half orc character i've yet to bring to this server more out of fear of controversy and bullying, i played him on one server and everyone ran away or came right up to him to pick a fight, no one actually RP'ed and talked to him.

[Thorsson]

It is logical to assume they are meant to be equal

There's a tautology, using logical and assume together. I could easily say that it's logical to assume that WotC wanted to make HOrcs weaker because they didn't imagine many players wanting to take on the role of a butt ugly punchbag. Even thinking WotC are logical is an assumption!

If you believe the opposite then show me where the food chain is explored for the mundane races of the setting.

I might, if I had a clue what this means.

It was never imgained that the races and favoured class system would have to take into account the unbalanced nature of the various multiclass combinations in Nwn2.

Another, and probably erroneous, assumption. WotC knew what classes were going to be in NWN and NWN2. Bioware were involved and Obsidian. If they thought HOrcs should be stronger they could have done something about it. In their ultimate wisdom, the BGTSCC PTB decided to make them stronger. And yet still you're not satisfied. Why is that?

The races were more or less ripped from a Pnp Source book filled with many more rules and regulations that would almost certainly disqualify most the multiclassed combinations you see in this game.

Each version of the rules has a number of petty regulations that DMs are free to ignore. There are several homemade petty rules on BGTSCC as well. Most of the FR ones are around Monks and Paladins. How does that affect HOrcs in particular?

...in the original source book the Barbarian was supposed to be able to stand on his own legs among all competition in regards to having the same amount of strengths and weaknesses.

Another assumption. Show me a sourcebook quote anywhere that says anything like this. I once had the pleasure of a long chat with Gary Gygax. He never said anything about balance at all. What he certainly wouldn't approve of is exactly what most of the whining threads on BGTSCC consist of - a Monty Haul attitude to the game: make my race stronger, make my class stronger, give me more/stronger feats; give me more/stronger items.

Given the lore surrounding Half Orcs and how that is their favoured class and it was and is assumed most Half Orc players would play Barbarians, it was meant to be an advantage.

Another damn assumption. Barbarians were originally a sub-class of Fighter, eventually getting a distinct class in 1995 and even then they were called Barbarian Fighters. By most metrics they would have to be seen as weaker than a standard Fighter - they took longer to level, can't wear armor heavier than Hide and have a restricted weapon list (no Swords for instance), and not even any Rage. OFC if you search all the sourcebooks that WotC has published from 3E onwards, you can end up with Pun Pun and the like (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... ter-builds). Somewhere in there, it's possible that Barbarian has its day...

[AlwaysSummer Day]

A character with absolutely no flaws sounds boring to me. 30 in each attribute, awesome at combat, a perfected moral or immoral compass, a complete lack of phobias, insight into how to always succeed possibly born out of ooc game mechanics knowledge, etc etc etc. If that sounds fun then by all means roll it. I would rather have a character that is above average in his niche rather than a jack of all trades who is meant to be a god. Each to their own though I'm not sure why anyone would want to play a farmer

[[DM] Seren]

Hello players,

I would like to remind everyone of the purpose of this thread, that is, the discussion on how to improve the half-orc race, and whether we should or not. For other topics, please start a new thread.

Thank you.

[tankteddy]

Hello players,

I would like to remind everyone of the purpose of this thread, that is, the discussion on how to improve the half-orc race, and whether we should or not. For other topics, please start a new thread.

Thank you.

How to improve Half orc, Give them the Human quick learner Feat just like half elves. This way the INT of a half orc can still be low but they dont lose out on RP for not having the skills needed to do so.

Dah Kogan if you read his back story is a Mix between Dex and STR based Fighter/barb ((Basicly Hunter PRC)) He is Quick witted but only in combat, his skills would reflect such as:
Survival
Set trap
Tumble
Intimidate
Listen
Spot
Search
Small amounts of
Taunt/heal/craft weapon/craft trap

Feat wise his build would have Ranger feats and two handed weapon feats with use of a spear or great Axe. As he was raised by Full orcs and trained to be a hunter/killer. He would have the Scent and track/swift tracker feat as well.

This is basic Orc traits and their hunting skills are not based on Hiding, its following prey till their prey drops from exhaustion and then moving in for the kill.

With the Hunter PRC yes Dah's RP would work but I would have to pump INT just to meet his RP and hes not that smart, his natural instincts are what give him so much.
Add Able learner Extra skill points like Half elf and human would be perfect.

Lore support for this Includes:

"Half-orcs are humanoids born of both human and orc ancestry by a multitude of means. Combining the physical power of their orcish ancestors with the agility of their humans ones, half-orcs can be formidable individuals."

"Half-orcs have a strength uncommon to most humans, though comparable with orcs. Half-orcs are less durable than their full-blooded kin, however, though they tend to be more dexterous and indeed, more so than most other humanoids. Half-orcs also have a resilience unique to them and when gravely injured, simply seem all the more determined to win, as though the blows had, in fact, empowered them."

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Half-orc

[Atlas]

What Thorsson said. . .

No one creates a character or chooses a race with the intention of being the patsy or second string to others.

Anyone designing such a game without clearly informing its players in the rules and lore that some are meant to be less equal than others, are irresponsible and at best have issues.

And this. . .

What he certainly wouldn't approve of is exactly what most of the whining threads on BGTSCC consist of - a Monty Haul attitude to the game: make my race stronger, make my class stronger, give me more/stronger feats; give me more/stronger items.

That is so easy to say about others when you hold a privileged position over them.

Why don't we nerf Sun Elves, or Duergar, or whatever it is you play these days, so that they get -2 to every attribute and see how you react. See how smug you are when everything doesn't work to your favour.

My bet is that you would reinvent yourself to the community in an attempt to throw off the past, and go back to the drawing board of crunching numbers and figuring out what is on top now.

This is the attitude of someone who doesn't really care about the lore, or the storyline, or even playing a fictional character in a setting.

The attitude of someone who only cares about the numbers and working out mathematical formulas in order to dominate others in-game.

Why don't we dig up obscure quotes from old sourcebooks about how Sun Elves by the measure of the lore of the setting shouldn't even be a playable race.

This whole culture that you champion, of ugliness and degrading peoples characters in a fictional game, and deriving pleasure from acting out faux racism and bigotry without any accord afforded to the over aching storyline, or the guy playing the object of your depraved entertainment, is everything that is wrong with this community and should have been stamped out years ago.

[Steve]

Give them the Human quick learner Feat just like half elves.

Fantastic idea!

My only question would be how that would effect current Half-Orcs. But it is likely that there are so few on BGTSCC that the Staff could offer a small window of time for a strict rebuild.