SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

[NegInfinity]

Honestly though, you should praise the 100% and lobby for it Steve.

Fine. I'll get behind a 100% RCR tool...but only if there is a 10% failure built into the act.

That was done on... what was that server called? Ah, right, arelith. The system was a complete garbage. Those kind of systems essentially waste people's time for the sake of rules.

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Also, addressing your earlier statement about "achieving something".

A player that is trying to achieve something through their characters is missing out on most of the fun. I'd say 90 to 95% of it. They pretty much never played the game to begin with.

Try a different kind of story, where your character dies horribly in some server-created event you couldn't possibly predict. That will result in significantly more entertaining experience than long-term plans and goals that would require months or years of planning.

[DM Narshe]

We're not keeping it. For now it's just to encourage playtesting of the updates.

We might make it a bi-annual thing though.

[NegInfinity]

We're not keeping it. For now it's just to encourage playtesting of the updates.

We might make it a bi-annual thing though.

On top of that, how about allowing Free RCR for a character that never left nexus?

[Steve]

Try a different kind of story, where your character dies horribly in some server-created event you couldn't possibly predict. That will result in significantly more entertaining experience than long-term plans and goals that would require months or years of planning.

This is still my point: Player-chosen deaths are just as farcical as Players never dying. And Player-chosen deaths—call them sacrifices to the RP, if you wish—got way more easier once the RCR came online. Imagine the intensity of DELETING a lvl 30 that just died!!!

Try a different kind of story where 1 death is it. No more. See how that makes you play this game (you can even ignore lag deaths, if you want). Try to stay alive from level 1 through 30. I dare you.

One can do it, but it takes guts, temperament and resolve. And not by simply fishing for a year.

Look, I'm fully aware I am in the smallest boat when it comes to actions-have-consequences-outside-the-Player's-hands. The biggest consequence in any game, is losing (often a "death," in many video games).

Just take a tally of how many PCs participated in the metaplot this last year, even specifically any of the parts that took place within/around Baldur's Gate. How many participate vs. how many had lasting consequences?

[DM Narshe]

On top of that, how about allowing Free RCR for a character that never left nexus?

We might be able to script that in but I'm not entirely sure it's something we want.

People shouldn't loiter in the Nexus. It causes extra stress on the server.

[NegInfinity]

This is still my point: Player-chosen deaths are just as farcical as Players never dying.

Nah. I won't agree with that.

Imagine the intensity of DELETING a lvl 30 that just died!!!

Nope. Not worth it.
Wrong intensity, wrong emotion. Amazing story turn reaction: "Wow! I want to play again". Having 30 level character deleted "Screw this game".

Try a different kind of story where 1 death is it. No more. See how that makes you play this game (you can even ignore lag deaths, if you want). Try to stay alive from level 1 through 30. I dare you.

Sure, if you're gonna pay my bills for the next year so I can dedicate enough time to the insanely boring mechanical aspects of the nwn2 engine.

This kind of challenge is boring. Not entertaining. Not interesting. I can absolutely overcome it with enough time wasted on the game. Therefore it is not worth undertaking.

Story events,however, are unique and are one of a kind. They do not happen twice. I sorely miss one of the kind completely amazing event that was ruined by certain character ignoring pvp rules.

The biggest consequence in any game, is losing (often a "death," in many video games).

Coming from you, that's a very disappointing statement, and It is amazing that you, after all that time you spent here, can even think this way.

Steve, if you think that you can "lose" at nwn rp server, or that "death" means losing and the challenge you can think of is purely mechanical "get to level 1 to level 30 without dying", you're playing the game with a very wrong mindset and are missing out on loads of fun, and probably never experienced full potential of fun the server can offer.

Make a character and die gloriously, preferably while taking half of the world with you. That would be more fun than finishing the game from level 1 to level 30 without dying even once 100 times in a row.

Wasn't the server supposed to be about "people having fun?" Yet for some reason people talk about using "consequences" as a means of punishing people.

Well, whatever.

[Steve]

Coming from you, that's a very disappointing statement, and It is amazing that you, after all that time you spent here, can even think this way.

Steve, if you think that you can "lose" at nwn rp server, or that "death" means losing and the challenge you can think of is purely mechanical "get to level 1 to level 30 without dying", you're playing the game with a very wrong mindset and are missing out on loads of fun, and probably never experienced full potential of fun the server can offer.

Make a character and die gloriously, preferably while taking half of the world with you. That would be more fun than finishing the game from level 1 to level 30 without dying even once 100 times in a row.

Wasn't the server supposed to be about "people having fun?" Yet for some reason people talk about using "consequences" as a means of punishing people.

Well, whatever.

You consistently mix up things.

One can "lose" mechanically, or in the storyline. But currently, neither happens. What is the consequence of that, then?

Well, storylines of "dying gloriously while taking half the world with you" are not going to happen, for starters. Being lvl 30 and never losing power...what is glorious in that? Nada.

There are 2 things going on here: the mechanical challenge, and the storyline challenge—and since you mix them up too often, it's best we separate them out.

Where is the mechanical challenge if you can RCR from 30 to 30? There isn't one. DMs do not kill toons, and if they did, a) it would be far too easy to do, b) Players whine. So that about kills the mechanical challenge aspect. Also to mention, again, we do not lose levels (unless you ARE punished by a DM, which is usually via an OOC issue).

As for the storyline aspect, this idea of "fun" gained without a good dose of risk vs. reward...well, why not just write the story on a wordpress blog and publish it to the grand ol' Internet? I'm sure we'd all like to read it. Where your PC does whatever you want, however you want it, without consequence, nor with any "influence" by other PCs actually being taken into account, whether you like it or not. Or simply erasing away storylines via mechanical means, like...wait for it...RCRing!!! lol. That's a great story.

I have had huge amounts of fun on BGTSCC, and you can judge me from afar considering I do not think we have ever RP'd together, except for surface interactions. I continue to have fun and continue to see building a storyline—which I am currently active doing—that not only has the possibly of "dying gloriously and taking half the world with me" but, if that happens, I hope for mother truckin' Ao it happens because of a roll of the Dice in a intense Event hosted by an arbitrator of PC actions—a DM—and...I hang on the edge of my keyboard hoping that the result goes my way, but knowing if it doesn't, that it was an Epic Attempt that wasn't bloody scripted for my own Ego Stroke!!!

Consequences are not about punishing people, and it is ignorant to keep pushing that thought.

I prefer the definition of "...of importance or significance; distinction."

And THAT needs to be earned, mate.

[King Leoric]

85%-100% RCR looks pretty good for me, atleast if it is limited for 1 time in 1-3 months (or annual) for example, to avoid too fast RCRing. After being on server for years, its quite boring to see the same characters over and over again. Personally, I would like to try out many different concepts, but 50% EXP is too low for me, thats why I am playing with 3-4 characters only

[Charraj]

If someone wants to do a 100% RCR then it should require making a DM request and involve some amount of demonstrable RP development. Allow established characters the opportunity to change builds to account for character development without feeling penalized by having to relevel all over again, but don't let players just freely 100% RCR on a whim.

Actually, this used to to be how it was done years ago. But the DM team at the time got flooded with rebuild requests which were motivated by mechanics, without much RP behind it. Eventually it got so bad that the DM team just stopped taking rebuild requests. Some time after that is when they put in the 50% RCR bot for everyone.

So remember, there was a time when there were no rebuilds allowed at all!

[Calodan]

So remember, there was a time when there were no rebuilds allowed at all!

This makes no sense. What you are saying is that once upon a time a bunch of kids had some candy. That candy was taken 100% but then the thief gave back 50% of what was already ours and we are supposed to be happy about that? Like it was some kind of hand out?

[Grimdark Hitman]

As for the storyline aspect, this idea of "fun" gained without a good dose of risk vs. reward...well, why not just write the story on a wordpress blog and publish it to the grand ol' Internet?

Is thou jealous of my lazy blog-writing shenanigans? But seriously, it would be "intense" deleting a level 30, in the vein that the player would feel ill and punished. Not something anyone should advocate for on a game. Imagine being the player responsible for destroying another character; six months of XP wasted and you think there isn't going to be bad blood brewing? It is a very BAD idea, and I'll be surprised if anyone endorses it. I'm all for adversarial RP (and it is the void this game is lacking atm ) but this is taking a nosedive toward OOC VENDETTA INTENSIFIED.

[Steve]

In the past, before the RCR Tool, a lvl 30 PC would only be deleted if a) that PC was given 3 perma-strikes by the DMs for IC behavior (sometimes OOC behavior, but only in combination), b) that PC was made an NPC. Which happened, a number of times.

So really, 99% of PCs deleted before the RCR Tool was by Player choice. And honestly, it was probably SUPER RARE if a Player did delete their Toons, unless they rage quit. I myself deleted a lvl 18 Toon about 2 weeks before the RCR Tool came online. Guess how I felt then?!?

But what I think Charraj touched on, is this: before the RCR Tool and the Gift that it is came online, Players could not RCR at whim, and it took actual Role-play to justify the rebuild/RCR because of RP retirement. And that didn't go so well for the DMs.

50% XP refund is a Gift. Hellz, 10% refund is a Gift. 100% refund creates a whole different paradigm, where essentially, long-time Players will never have to level again for existing or new Characters, and new Players will simply choose the most Pawning Build to get to 30 as fast as possible, then start RPing some or any number of lvl 30 builds of their hearts desire.

Again, it seems the underlying argument is that real RP doesn't start until your Toon is lvl 30 or "powerful enough to do whatever their storyline is." Damn...I despise that mentality. Lvl 1 Toons should be the beginning of a storyline, equally spread out from 0 XP to 450,000 XP.

The RCR Tool has been a curse to this Server, just as much as it has been a Gift.

[chad878262]

I do think we all need to understand when discussing a feeling laced with individualism (like fun) that it is important to understand everything discussed is simply opinion, not fact. Making broad statements such as fun being impossible without risk are, by the very nature of fun, inaccurate. As is stating that it is specifically not fun to respect character death and start anew, from level 1. We each have our own definition of what is fun for us, as individuals and that should be respected across the board.

What's the point?

Really, what should be discussed is not what is most fun for the player, because it is going to differ from person to person. Instead, what should be taken in to account is allowing for support of both new and experienced players in regards to both mechanically and RP'ly supporting changes to their character requiring RCR. I recently recommended something of a mix of 100% vs. 50% RCR whereby up to 10 you can RCR at 100%, up to 20 at 80% and after that at 60% (though I do still think there should be a cap of at most level 25)... I think this allows for the mechanical RCR's as a learning curve for new players or for players that need to make changes due to RP taking them down a different path. I still think that system is 'fair' while still respecting the fact that you should not RCR constantly.

What I would add to this, in regards to any 'exception' is that perhaps there could at some point be an RCR token to allow full RCR so instead of DM's having to sit there while someone RCR's, the player instead submits a request via PM and after review (similar to new PC's back story submissions) if valid RP reasons are presented to modify the build IC a non-transferable token is provided which, when presented to the RCR bot saves full XP to be used to RCR that PC. This allows for full RCR when a valid case is presented to the staff, without a DM being required in game to be the item/gold holder while the player completes the RCR.

Not sure if a good idea or not, but I really am against full RCR for the sake of it once all the mechanics of the current release have been debugged and we are back to play as usual. If full RCR is implemented I really hope it is like once per year, per player account to at least encourage giving your character a chance before wiping it for a completely different build. I also think there should be at least some respect for other players in regards to RCR'ing to play the same character with completely different classes (as in Joe Adventurer RCR'ing from 24 FS/3R/3BG to 10W/10AM/10BM, but still being Joe Adventurer with the same personality, attitude, etc).

[Duster47]

What I would add to this, in regards to any 'exception' is that perhaps there could at some point be an RCR token to allow full RCR so instead of DM's having to sit there while someone RCR's, the player instead submits a request via PM and after review (similar to new PC's back story submissions) if valid RP reasons are presented to modify the build IC a non-transferable token is provided which, when presented to the RCR bot saves full XP to be used to RCR that PC. This allows for full RCR when a valid case is presented to the staff, without a DM being required in game to be the item/gold holder while the player completes the RCR.

For what it is worth, DMs have available 100% and 75% single-use tokens that work with the RCR Bot. It was easier in the current state of change, to change the underlying RCR bot code and dialog. This change will not last forever. The Tokens almost certainly will for reasons Chad mentioned.

[Grimdark Hitman]

So really, 99% of PCs deleted before the RCR Tool was by Player choice. And honestly, it was probably SUPER RARE if a Player did delete their Toons, unless they rage quit. I myself deleted a lvl 18 Toon about 2 weeks before the RCR Tool came online. Guess how I felt then?!?

Oh, some indignation was there likely.


50% XP refund is a Gift. Hellz, 10% refund is a Gift. 100% refund creates a whole different paradigm, where essentially, long-time Players will never have to level again for existing or new Characters, and new Players will simply choose the most Pawning Build to get to 30 as fast as possible, then start RPing some or any number of lvl 30 builds of their hearts desire.

Shifting the XP back to 70 percent would be palatable, but procrastinating the day the XP rebate declines again is also another exciting prospect to visit (one moar month).

Again, it seems the underlying argument is that real RP doesn't start until your Toon is lvl 30 or "powerful enough to do whatever their storyline is." Damn...I despise that mentality. Lvl 1 Toons should be the beginning of a storyline, equally spread out from 0 XP to 450,000 XP.

So it's not a systemic problem and more of a player mentality but not for the reasoning you have developed; it is because players want to hustle to 30, to eliminate as much losing in pvp as possible. It's very shaming, you know.

The RCR Tool has been a curse to this Server, just as much as it has been a Gift.

Yeah, it has, but in Murica we believe in freedom, and that means making the wrong choice just as much as the right choice. The amount of time I have wasted hitting the rcr button is horror-wrenching, and as some have saids on the forum... it can lead to burn-out.

@Chad I agree that undeniably there is a certain subjectivity to fun, and do not think that danger is the source of all funsies, unless you literally are drawn to being in a state of constant danger and tenseness. That compromise you proposed while not having enough salt-drenched XP in it could be our only hope.

The thing with the token is too much though, buddy. You're overcomplicating it. I just think the RCR tool could use an extension on its removal date; the staff had no idea there'd be so many bugs stippled into the PW. Joe the adventurer should be responsible, reading self-righteous drivels from a faerun bible every day, and not associate with any RCR folks, or liars.