Balancing Bards and FS?

[mrm3ntalist]

The hardest thing with playing a bard on BG is the RP, being a convincing storyteller / singer / flautist.

And when you get that joke entering taverns "Get out, ya barred!"

[mrm3ntalist]

This screenshot is only an ανέκδοτο for blind people, or people refusing to learn.

You can see in the screenshot which songs and which spells you need to easily solo the balor. Easily. Instead of trying to ridicule presented facts, try to learn something instead. It will make one a better player.

Hidden: show

[Thorsson]

One of the reasons for the current pyramid is the current monsters. If these were more varied (like fewer had Spot and some had higher AC) then this would help certain builds (like Rogues) while hindering others (like EDM Bards). Nothing you can do on that side about FS/Cleric or Dragon Druid though. CoDzilla rules PnP too...

[mrm3ntalist]

One of the reasons for the current pyramid is the current monsters.

That is true. The lack of monster variety favors only certain builds. However something that is easy for a rogue it will be a piece of cake for FS, Bards and Co

The reason why the gap between the builds mentioned in the OP and Firghters,rogues etc, are the spells and the higher degree of difficulty of acquiring epic gear. Epic shops can bring Bards, FSs, Fighters, Rogues etc closer. A small example.

The +2 +1d4 viper can be found easily. Or one can buy the Elven longsword that is +2EB +2Peircing.

On the hands of an FS those weapons become +5 +1d4 and +5 +2 piercing. With 0 effort.

On the other hand a Fighter has to stick for that +2 weapon for years until he finds an epic weapon. Epic shops selling epic weapons will change that and make the gap smaller with no nerf needed

Most other issues are mostly L2P issues.

[Boddynock]

This screenshot is only an ανέκδοτο for blind people, or people refusing to learn.

You can see in the screenshot which songs and which spells you need to easily solo the balor. Easily. Instead of trying to ridicule presented facts, try to learn something instead. It will make one a better player.

Hidden: show

I love that when people disagree with you, your response is always if they would listen to you, they might learn something... How about instead, I take the facts presented as what they are, and do not infer conclusions that the data given does not necessarily support?

I suggest in the future you limit yourself to discussing the actual topic, like you did right below this post, instead of making remarks that border on personal attacks.

[MopKnight]

If I were building the server I would just flat out disable Favoured Souls. They offer nothing roleplay wise that can't be achieved by appropriate multiclassing of clerics and are mostly used to powerbuild paladins with as few paladin levels as humanly possible.

Since that will never happen, adjust paladins and blackguards to make EDM builds as hard to pull off as possible for FS. I took a few fighter levels on Reine to show off her pre-paladin militia past, but I've played plenty of pure paladins. Do not disable EDM, for gods sake, unless you're going to do a severe Pathfinder-ish workover on what paladins and blackguards actually are.

That's my personal bugbear though. From a mechanical perspective I believe in playing my sheet and skew my character as close to that as possible while still being fun/cool to play. I don't like FS 'paladins'.

No comment on bards. I have no idea why DnD designers thought it would be a good idea to make a class that spell casted based partly on a linear scaling skill. It seems like a relatively dumb decision.

[Boddynock]

I never understood the justification for FS abilities from a lore standpoint either. It seems to me like the decision process was more like, "Hey we need a divine spontaneous caster, but let's spice them up by cherry picking great things other classes get and giving it to the with no justification! Monks get great saves, let's give them that, oh, barbarians get DR, let's give 'em that too. And how about some haste, cause why not? Now add a dash of elemental resists and a little this and that and boom, done!" I mean, it makes total sense if you don't think about it right?

[mrm3ntalist]

Since that will never happen, adjust paladins and blackguards to make EDM builds as hard to pull off as possible for FS

That would help, i think, but the thing is that doing that will also make it difficult for other classes to get EDM by multiclasing with Paladin and Blackguard

I love that when people disagree with you, your response is always if they would listen to you, they might learn something... How about instead, I take the facts presented as what they are, and do not infer conclusions that the data given does not necessarily support?

I suggest in the future you limit yourself to discussing the actual topic, like you did right below this post, instead of making remarks that border on personal attacks.

Read the post again. I said listen to the facts presented to you.

Anyway, you got it the wrong way. You are the one who contributes baseless arguments, not just in this thread but others. You are the one that brands facts as anecdote..

You can keep your suggestions about what i would limit myself to. They are not wanted or needed, especially from you

[DM Pun Pun]

Keep it civil, last warning.



DM Pun-Pun

[Sylael]

The hardest thing with playing a bard on BG is the RP, being a convincing storyteller / singer / flautist.

And when you get that joke entering taverns "Get out, ya barred!"

This. Its the hardest yet most enjoyable part. You can really do some moving and shaking with a well RP'd Bard.

In my eyes, easiest way to balance FS is to make it application only, along with warlock.

[tankteddy]

Honestly I am amazed this thread lasted so long. I agree that FS Bard and Dragon druid are OP, but not because of what they have, but what the other classes DON'T have.

If you really want to balance the server stop thinking (nerf this nerf that) and think. Buff this, improve this.

Something I would suggest, add hips as a Rouge special talent. Such as 15 Rogue can take it if they have defence roll or such so rogue doesn't HAVE to multi class asSassi or such. Tumble for Barbs. Or perhaps give them Con to AC with light armor. Personally when I think of barb I think Conan or someone in just some let her armor or a light breast plate.

For other under used classes like warpriest beyond 4 or so, change the casting progression from 5/10 to maybe 6/10 or 8/10 increasing in the higher levels.
Add in hunter PRC or some other Melee class preferred something that doesn't need spell casting or rogue/DD levels to be viable solo.

I personally would also like to see shield AC items much like the rapier in RS but for 2 handed weapons. Such as great sword or such. Builds and classes that need IPA for damage heavily lack on AC. Again personally I would love a 40-45 AC fighter with a greatsword that doesnt NEED a shield.

Final note. If I was a DM I would have locked this thread the moment people started to attack each other and not the problem that is brought forth by the thread.

[Thorsson]

One of the reasons for the current pyramid is the current monsters.

That is true. The lack of monster variety favors only certain builds. However something that is easy for a rogue it will be a piece of cake for FS, Bards and Co

The reason why the gap between the builds mentioned in the OP and Firghters,rogues etc, are the spells and the higher degree of difficulty of acquiring epic gear. Epic shops can bring Bards, FSs, Fighters, Rogues etc closer. A small example.

The +2 +1d4 viper can be found easily. Or one can buy the Elven longsword that is +2EB +2Peircing.

On the hands of an FS those weapons become +5 +1d4 and +5 +2 piercing. With 0 effort.

On the other hand a Fighter has to stick for that +2 weapon for years until he finds an epic weapon. Epic shops selling epic weapons will change that and make the gap smaller with no nerf needed

Most other issues are mostly L2P issues.

I think having less ultra-high spot monsters would benefit rogues without helping Bard/FS. Similarly taking away UD or sneak immunity.

I do agree about gear though; in fact I was thinking of adding something earlier. It's high time we moved from +3/+4 maximum to +4/+5, so at least casters didn't have that as an advantage.

[tankteddy]

I don't think we should up the gear, just add more options. The point of having good support casters is so you party up and have that kinda interactions. Even with all +4 gear and such you will never be better then basic gear buffed by a cleric and wizard. Or druid. Why yes I would like the world to be easier for those who only play so often and can't find parties as much, I don't want to eliminate the need for such support. There was a tread on how people refused the aid of a cleric or druid because that say "I have healing kits or potions/wand/scroll for that." You should NEED to work together, but at the same time you should be able to survive on your own regardless of RP build or power build. I would love to reroll my support cleric of illmater. She was a pacifist that healed everyone in need.

[mrm3ntalist]

I do agree about gear though; in fact I was thinking of adding something earlier. It's high time we moved from +3/+4 maximum to +4/+5, so at least casters didn't have that as an advantage.

For me, it doesnt have to be +5. That might sound too much for some. However, being able to actually get the highest tier equipment will help a lot. I am certain it would be much better if a barbarian/rogue/etc knew they could buy their end game equipment instead of making a barbarian/rogue/etc only when you find that equipment.

[DM Golem]

Final note. If I was a DM I would have locked this thread the moment people started to attack each other and not the problem that is brought forth by the thread.

I think its not a bad call, now I have seen how things have gone.

I will lock it for a day, if anyone wants to continue fruitful discussion after that PM me and I can reopen it