Post PvP Debates: A potential solution

[Boddynock]

It should not be the person that is instigating the PvP that decides the final RP out. It should be the other way around. I know that sucks for a lot of reasons but I think it would alleviate much of the stigma around PvP and any post Debates.

Ewww, no way! Then people would just act ridiculous and "opt out" of consequences they don't like. Which would just generate complaints about that, bringing us back to square one.

[Mac]

Ewww, no way! Then people would just act ridiculous and "opt out" of consequences they don't like. Which would just generate complaints about that, bringing us back to square one.

If someone does not except your PvP out and decides to take an unrealistic "opt out" instead. Especially if it is to avoid consequences then at least you know that player wont be much fun in PvP and to avoid it with them in the future. Not a perfect answer I know... But it's something.

[Face]

The rp out is stupid and is only there to protect the people that get sooooo but hurt when they lose.

In a perfect world evry one would own up to the consequences of there deeds good or evil....

If you talk shit about a powerful Thayan wizard or opose him and foil his plans you may end up as a stone statue in the enclave.

If you go out to find a group of bandits to talk them out of there evil ways you could end up being mugged and killed.

If your a paladin and you go after that necromacer and his undead army you may end up as one of his undead minions.

If your playing a bandit dont be surpirsed when you get strung up when they catch you.

If you shout that your going to kill a fellow who is known to be a thug you may get killed on the spot by said thug.


But not here on BG here all you have to do is cry oocly and make the other party lose interest in the whole rp just cous of the ooc crying or cry to a DM and they wil come save you even if you are trying to escape the consequences of your own action.

[DM Pun Pun]

One thing I've learned in regards to all of the PvP interactions on this server: Most of the time, the loser is always sore, even if its the player that is pro-PvP. You rarely find a player that is ok with taking a loss, because either its a player that never wanted part of the PvP or a player who can't believe their PvP build just got crushed. And then there is the gloating, the metagaming of NPCs, ... its just a real shame it ends up like this.

There might be a handful of people here that handle player conflict well, and this is not an action PvP server. It will never be an action PvP server.

I personally believe the solution is for everyone to respect each other as a fellow player, regardless of how their characters might act toward each other.

[TheLier]

Actually, I would like a clarification about RP out.

First of all is it "bail out" card, which lets you go away without consequences

OR (and this is very important)

Is it just a way to avoid PvP, on the "agressor's terms"

To my interpetation, the second one would mean, that the player avoids PvP, but the agressor states how. Of course that is only an offer, and can be refused, but that makes you consent to PvP.

There is only one problem with that. The "agressor", could deliberatly give an out which will not be taken/can't be taken without breaking character, thus forcing the other player to either PvP or to do something out of character.

Like: "Attack FAI or I kill you", "Bow to my God and sacrifice a human being" or just plain and simple "Give me 50k gold"

Personally, I was always a bit confused about this, and seeing how much grief is there about PvP, I avoid it in general, save people I know, and trust with not being sore losers, and whining just becuse they lost. I simply don't have thick skin enough to go through a process like that. And I did break character quite a few times becuse of that, and the fact that I know that PvP never solves conflict, only starts ones. And I don't like endless never-resolving conflicts.

P.S.: Personally I think that RP out is a rule against the "bad apples", who would bully lowelevels and such with PvP. So even though I would like a server without one, I would hate it much more, if lowbies were killed "becuse they did not bow to me and lick the mud off my boots".

[Xanfyrst]

The lack of consequences on this server is depressing. And it's not just the DM team's failure to enforce these things, but also some players doing exactly what Face described above. The RP out shouldn't be possible once your character has crossed a certain line.

Also, the perma strikes and perma death rules have become too lax over the years. I know a few characters who should've been dead a long time ago due to bad decisions or heroics that backfired.

[DM Echo]

Actually, I would like a clarification about RP out.

First of all is it "bail out" card, which lets you go away without consequences

OR (and this is very important)

Is it just a way to avoid PvP, on the "agressor's terms"

To my interpetation, the second one would mean, that the player avoids PvP, but the agressor states how. Of course that is only an offer, and can be refused, but that makes you consent to PvP.

There is only one problem with that. The "agressor", could deliberatly give an out which will not be taken/can't be taken without breaking character, thus forcing the other player to either PvP or to do something out of character.

Like: "Attack FAI or I kill you", "Bow to my God and sacrifice a human being" or just plain and simple "Give me 50k gold"

Personally, I was always a bit confused about this, and seeing how much grief is there about PvP, I avoid it in general, save people I know, and trust with not being sore losers, and whining just becuse they lost. I simply don't have thick skin enough to go through a process like that. And I did break character quite a few times becuse of that, and the fact that I know that PvP never solves conflict, only starts ones. And I don't like endless never-resolving conflicts.

P.S.: Personally I think that RP out is a rule against the "bad apples", who would bully lowelevels and such with PvP. So even though I would like a server without one, I would hate it much more, if lowbies were killed "becuse they did not bow to me and lick the mud off my boots".

In an RP out the one being attacked gets to decide the out and when to take it. That doesn't mean simply walking past the aggressor or ignoring it or.. calling their bluff.. That is ignoring the situation, not RPing an out..

RP outs include fleeing, surrendering, apologizing, trying to change the subject, diverting the hostility elsewhere, etc.

It is up to the person being attacked what RP out they want to take. If they however draw their sword or act hostile when their attacker is clearly showing his intent (sword drawn, toggled hostile) or attempts to turn the tide before such an event by becoming the aggressor.. then of course no more RP out can be taken.

The consequences of taking an RP out is admitting defeat and not returning to the area for as long as it is deemed their aggressor may still be in the area and must avoid the aggressor for 24 hours...

The lack of consequences on this server is depressing. And it's not just the DM team's failure to enforce these things, but also some players doing exactly what Face described above. The RP out shouldn't be possible once your character has crossed a certain line.

You want DM enforced consequences.. The consequences can be as big as you and the person you attacking decide upon.. But you want DMs to step in and punish players who lose in PvP.. That isn't something we want to do.

[Boddynock]

Actually, I would like a clarification about RP out.

First of all is it "bail out" card, which lets you go away without consequences

OR (and this is very important)

Is it just a way to avoid PvP, on the "agressor's terms"

To my interpetation, the second one would mean, that the player avoids PvP, but the agressor states how. Of course that is only an offer, and can be refused, but that makes you consent to PvP.

There is only one problem with that. The "agressor", could deliberatly give an out which will not be taken/can't be taken without breaking character, thus forcing the other player to either PvP or to do something out of character.

Like: "Attack FAI or I kill you", "Bow to my God and sacrifice a human being" or just plain and simple "Give me 50k gold"

Personally, I was always a bit confused about this, and seeing how much grief is there about PvP, I avoid it in general, save people I know, and trust with not being sore losers, and whining just becuse they lost. I simply don't have thick skin enough to go through a process like that. And I did break character quite a few times becuse of that, and the fact that I know that PvP never solves conflict, only starts ones. And I don't like endless never-resolving conflicts.

P.S.: Personally I think that RP out is a rule against the "bad apples", who would bully lowelevels and such with PvP. So even though I would like a server without one, I would hate it much more, if lowbies were killed "becuse they did not bow to me and lick the mud off my boots".

The second one is how it works, kinda, but there are other rules against griefing that cover the concerns you raised.

[DM Pun Pun]

Also, the perma strikes and perma death rules have become too lax over the years.

We never really had permastrike or permadeath rules for PvPs.

[TheLier]

Actually, I would like a clarification about RP out.

First of all is it "bail out" card, which lets you go away without consequences

OR (and this is very important)

Is it just a way to avoid PvP, on the "agressor's terms"

To my interpetation, the second one would mean, that the player avoids PvP, but the agressor states how. Of course that is only an offer, and can be refused, but that makes you consent to PvP.

There is only one problem with that. The "agressor", could deliberatly give an out which will not be taken/can't be taken without breaking character, thus forcing the other player to either PvP or to do something out of character.

Like: "Attack FAI or I kill you", "Bow to my God and sacrifice a human being" or just plain and simple "Give me 50k gold"

Personally, I was always a bit confused about this, and seeing how much grief is there about PvP, I avoid it in general, save people I know, and trust with not being sore losers, and whining just becuse they lost. I simply don't have thick skin enough to go through a process like that. And I did break character quite a few times becuse of that, and the fact that I know that PvP never solves conflict, only starts ones. And I don't like endless never-resolving conflicts.

P.S.: Personally I think that RP out is a rule against the "bad apples", who would bully lowelevels and such with PvP. So even though I would like a server without one, I would hate it much more, if lowbies were killed "becuse they did not bow to me and lick the mud off my boots".

The second one is how it works, kinda, but there are other rules against griefing that cover the concerns you raised.

Yeah, but there is a little problem with that.

For one toon, something can be completely ok, but for another it would be totally out of character.

So, in that case, when it is griefing or when it is ok?

The same out was given for two toons in a similar situation. In one, it can be only escaped with breaking character. Now of course, that could go both ways if the players want to be arses to eachother. *sighs* If people would take DM Pun-Puns advice, it would be lot easier in general IMO.

Now, that means that it could only be "policed" on a case by case basis which is very time consuming and not too rewarding.

Of course, this is all my personal opinion.

[DM Echo]

Well.. that's not how it works though...

Examples of RPing hostility include *Draws sword*, *Grabs the hilt of his sword*, *Grips his staff tightly*, or similar phrases that show hostility, annoyance, anger, or suspicion, and allow the player you are interacting with to understand that PVP is imminent. This gives the other player a chance to use an IC (in-character) action to avoid PVP (otherwise known as the RP out). RP outs include fleeing, surrendering, apologizing, trying to change the subject, diverting the hostility elsewhere, etc.
Or the other player could toggle hostile and attack you.

The player being aggressed upon chooses his RP out.. Your aggressor doesn't get to pick demands of you that are out of character for your character even if they might seem somewhat reasonable to another character.

They can give you options of course.. Which amounts to surrendering should you accept their demand.. Such as pay up.. Call me your master.. Bow at my feet.. Say you are sorry.. Give me your +20 MFP of everythingness immunity.. Whatever.. If you choose that option.. you are completely free to.. But that is surrendering to your aggressor, only one of your options.

[TheLier]

Well.. that's not how it works though...

Examples of RPing hostility include *Draws sword*, *Grabs the hilt of his sword*, *Grips his staff tightly*, or similar phrases that show hostility, annoyance, anger, or suspicion, and allow the player you are interacting with to understand that PVP is imminent. This gives the other player a chance to use an IC (in-character) action to avoid PVP (otherwise known as the RP out). RP outs include fleeing, surrendering, apologizing, trying to change the subject, diverting the hostility elsewhere, etc.
Or the other player could toggle hostile and attack you.

The player being aggressed upon chooses his RP out.. Your aggressor doesn't get to pick demands of you that are out of character for your character even if they might seem somewhat reasonable to another character.

They can give you options of course.. Which amounts to surrendering should you accept their demand.. Such as pay up.. Call me your master.. Bow at my feet.. Say you are sorry.. Give me your +20 MFP of everythingness immunity.. Whatever.. If you choose that option.. you are completely free to.. But that is surrendering to your aggressor, only one of your options.

But I have of course a problem with that too (two in fact):

- You are caught witnessing the super-evil ritual of <insert some dastardly faction>. You take the "flee" RP out so they can't touch, and you tell everyone about it, they go there and PvP them to the ground. Or you just simply expose all the "evil".

- If the attacked person chooses their RP out, then he might say "sorry mister bandit, but I don't want to fight with you" and casually walk away?

That could be a problem in my eyes. I could be just misunderstanding things of course, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

(None of this is meant as agression, or provocation, but these does seem like real concerns to me)

[Boddynock]

Let me clarify a bit. The person being aggressed gets to choose the RP out he wants to attempt, but not always what the options are, and not whether or not that out satisfies the other player.

It is up to the person trying to avoid PVP to either defuse or get out of the situation. If they don't defuse hostilities or flee, then the situation is still hostile. Let's take the example of "Give me 50k or die," otherwise as banditry.

Bandit accosts traveler: "Give me all your jewels or I will cut you down."

Hostile intent is displayed, thus giving traveler the opportunity to choose an RP out...

"RP outs include fleeing, surrendering, apologizing, trying to change the subject, diverting the hostility elsewhere, etc. "

If he makes an earnest attempt to flee, he cannot be pursued past a transition according to the rules. Keep in mind feeling does not include walking away and ignoring the threat (as people have told me in the past). He can surrender and hand over his jewels, the out that the bandit would obviously prefer. He can attempt to apologize for walking down the road, and beg forgiveness for not having any jewels to give, which might just result in the bandit changing his demands and not change the hostile intent. He may try to change the subject (which might fail resulting in PVP). He can divert hostility by, say, claiming his companion has way more wealth than he does and if you let me go on my way I will tell you where to find him (which may also fail to convince the bandit). He can make up his own option, giving over a few cheap jewels and lying, denying ownership of any other jewels...

Basically what I am getting at is the person being accosted isn't 100% in control, usually the aggressor gets to pick the situation, and list acceptable options as he or she sees them. The person being accosted then has to pick an out that makes sense and satisfies the aggressor. "I'm sorry for insulting you" is likely good enough, but "I'm sorry I murdered your wife just now" isn't an RP out, the aggressor has every right not to be satisfied by the lack of roleplay there (That's what the RP in RP out means) and attack anyway, r demand some other concession to avoid PVP. That's the same reason resting and buffing is consent to PVP in hostile situations, you aren't taking an RP out, you are ignoring RP in favor of trying to obtain some mechanical advantage. RP ut means just that, you hve to role play your way out of the situation, and having to do things you normally wouldn't do in character might be a part of that, just like, you know, real life.

So really, neither party is 100% in control of how it goes down, you can't ignore an RP out in favor of something that makes no sense IC just because you don't want to PVP. If you don't want to PVP, don't murder so and so's wife, or insult anyone ever, run for your life the minute you suspect someone of banditry... If it isn't in character for your guy to run from bandits, that is your choice, but you have to take the consequences of that...

[Boddynock]

- You are caught witnessing the super-evil ritual of <insert some dastardly faction>. You take the "flee" RP out so they can't touch, and you tell everyone about it, they go there and PvP them to the ground. Or you just simply expose all the "evil".

- If the attacked person chooses their RP out, then he might say "sorry mister bandit, but I don't want to fight with you" and casually walk away?

1) If super evil faction is dumb enough to allow witnesses, then yeah, that's pretty much how that works...

2) No, casually walking away is not fleeing, and saying " Sorry Mr. Bandit, but I don't want to fight you" is not an appropriate role-play response to "Give me your money..." so when he ignores the threat he is consenting to PVP by not taking an RP out.

[Boddynock]

I love a good debate, so I hate to do this. But we have successfully derailed this thread, we are supposed to be discussing Meta's proposal for a new rule, not discussing how the current rules should be interpreted.

If someone want's to make a new thread for that purpose, I'm sure I will find it, but out of respect for the forum rules and Meta's thread, I am going to stop this current train of thought here.