Harper Agent Prc...Changes? Reqs./CL progression/Feats/Name

[Valefort]

Or we leave the requirements as they are, heavy and a nice repellent against powerbuilding then we update those class abilities to something a little more playable, add a kit or two and that is it. That way only those who want to RP the class will most likely take it so no further watering down of the lore and that will be fine RP wise because of how the Harpers work (decentralized organization that even sometimes fights itself unknowingly).

[Steve]

Though "heavy" in the sense of 2 Feats to unlock (currently), both Alertness and Iron Will are not bad Feats to take, at all. In fact, they're pretty good!

But there is no reason that I can see that the HA isn't made to be like the PnP original, which is only to change the Feat reqs. to Negotiator (which btw, is NOT as useful/nice to have as the former two).

I am personally all for keeping the PrC as is, RP-wise. I wouldn't be happy to not associate it with the RP behind its existence in the first place. But I do not think making it DM-approved to take, is necessary.

As Thids points out, the PrC description could have an amended statement saying that Harper Agent is a very particular PrC and along the lines of Play Your Sheet, your PC, if it has this PrC, should follow the dogma of the Harpers (if not apply to become one in the BGTSCC Player Guild).

[kleomenes]

Indeed, in PNP if you breach the Code, endanger other Harpers intentionally or turn away from being a Harper you lose your divinely sanctioend abilities. Its similar to paladin that regard (just the abilities are lamer! )

[Valefort]

They're not bad but they're not usually taken either, same for negotiator, those are all luxury feats that can even be found on items.

Also if you go back to the first page and look at the links to the different potential kits you'll see they all require two feats :

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html
http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html
http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html
http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html

I don't think DM approval is necessary either but I do think that relatively useless feat requirements are necessary if the class is to be RPed, look at Daggerspell Mage :

Daggerspell mages see the quick movements of their deadly daggers as an attendant part of their spellcasting. These sometimes reclusive ?gures remain spellcasters ?rst and melee combatants second. Daggerspell mages, like their colleagues the daggerspell shapers, seek truth and justice, but they de?ne such concepts in the heat of the moment. Daggerspell mages do not see morality as an absolute, and their ideals are guided by their sense of what is right and fair.

Daggerspell mages are closely related to the daggerspell shapers, the other half of the organization known as the Daggerspell Guardians (see page 167). Both preserve the work of good folk and balance the concerns of civilized communities against the sanctity of nature, but where a shaper is quiet and calculating, a daggerspell mage is wild and impulsive. The two halves of the organization work together amicably, but they have decidedly different approaches to most problems.

Who actually RPs it ? I imagine some do or did but I've yet to see one. The two classes follow the same policy, no application, one has somewhat useful feat requirements, the other less.

[Calantyr]

Since the class seems to focus on improving saving throws, would it benefit from gaining Divine Grace at higher level? There's easier ways to gain the feat if your intention is power gaming (Paladin/Blackguard 2) so I don't see it particularly unbalancing, just useful.

Edit: On second thought, Bards don't need easier ways to improve their killiness.

[Steve]

Just needed a place to put this link:

http://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/organ ... pers.shtml

[Nomster]

I thought I might as well chime in.

Telia has HA in her build because of extra skill points, she is otherwise a Bard/Sorcerer mix. I do not find HA to add anything of value to her apart from skill points but went with it because I value them and with the dispel fix, she lost a lot by needing to take fewer bard levels. Listen and Tumble and 'mechanical' skills do nothing for her current build (and bard opens them anyway).

This is from a point of view from a player with a retired Harper character. I would prefer to see the views of active Harper players (use your alt forum accounts!!!).

-Name (keep it Harper Agent and all that that associates/entails for RP, or, possibly change to Champion of Woodsy Freedom!)

If anyone can take the class, it should not be called Harper Agent because those people are not Harper Agents. As simple is that. Change the name and do something about the divine blessings, because those feats are divine gifts from the gods sponsoring the Harpers. Re-name them. It would just need a name change, feat description change and of course, class description change. Something like metaquad4's suggestion.

If only actual Harper agents can take the class, it should be application only to restrict others from taking it (last thing wanted is 'Harpers' who are not part of the guild). I would not limit it to just actual Harpers but also those striving to become Harpers. Which is all documented on Harper boards so easy for DMs to see and confirm. Those who already have the class, can be offered a free 100% rebuild. Since there are not many, it should not be a large issue. Applications would be handled much the same way RW applications are. The RW player gets the thumbs up from the guild, the DM team reviews the application and is then given the qualification feat. The DM team has no say in who joins the RW guild other than to say if the application is correct or not, and the background valid. A questionnaire to fill like the one for RWs would make it easier.

The Harper guild would never allow DMs to decide who joins and the DM team should not make how guilds are run their business, unless it is necessary. Class applications are only available because a simple alignment/feat check is not enough, and really, in the end even if the application for the class is approved by the DMs, the guild can reject the application to join the actual guild. These are two separate applications (clarifying because I read some confusion).

- Give Harper Agent PrC kits

I do not think the current PrC kits are working as they should with the bugs, sadly. I also have to be honest and say that HA likely does not warrant PrC kits. I can see it happening if a developer has a particular interest themselves in seeing it done and willing to put down the time. If the class would be guild restricted, few would have access to the PrC.

- CL progression (keep at 4/5 or go for 5/5, since it may be argued to be not-on-par with many other 5 level PrCs).

I would prefer 5/5. Though for a pure caster (cleric or mage) 4/5 is not that big of an issue as you end up on CL 29. Multi-class more and it can begin to hurt.

- Feats (how to best upgrade/change the PrC specific Feats to either match PnP listing, or, to better match the NWN2 available spells/feats...and what is worthwhile for BGTSCC).

Changing the two feats to only require negotiator would indeed be nice. But as per Valefort's suggestion, if the class gains some bonuses, it may as well be kept at two feats. Although, while Harper Mage/Pirest/Scout/Paragon require two feats, Harper Agent itself in PnP does not. Likely, all the Harper PrCs should be looked at, if keeping the PrC as a Harper one and 'brought together' in some way, perhaps through kits.

As for Daggerspell mage, it is obscure. Harpers are central to Faerun. There is also not a Daggerspell mage guild on the server.

As has been said, the HA PrC does not benefit bards which is very strange considering that lorewise at least, majority of Harpers are bards. Server wise though, I would say it has been a mix.

[Calantyr]

Just to be clear, is the consensus that the requirements will be reverted to only requiring Negotiator (instead of Alertness/Iron Will)?

[Steve]

Just to be clear, is the consensus that the requirements will be reverted to only requiring Negotiator (instead of Alertness/Iron Will)?

Hello!

Just wanted to *bump* this, and request that if anyone on Staff has an update or and idea of what is being decided—or not—that someone could let the Community know.

Cheers!

[chad878262]

Just to be clear, is the consensus that the requirements will be reverted to only requiring Negotiator (instead of Alertness/Iron Will)?

Hello!

Just wanted to *bump* this, and request that if anyone on Staff has an update or and idea of what is being decided—or not—that someone could let the Community know.

Cheers!

Hi Steve, there hasn't been any further discussions on HA. As M3nt said back in December, "After Barbarian we are going to look at SwashBuckler and Ghost Faced Killer [snip]"

Those three class updates are done and in game, not sure of the priority of the remaining ones, but off the top of my head I would say Black Flame Zealot, Cave Stalker and potentially Dragon Warrior and Battlerager would probably be ahead of any changes to Harper Agent and creating kits. However, I do not know what the devs are working on specifically at any given time or how they have defects/enhancements queued up in there book of work, so I could very well be wrong.

[Steve]

Thanks Chad.

Personally, I think Kits are cool, but far beyond what was asked here: to get back to the PnP Lore version of Harper Agent which requires only Negotiator feat, and drop the Alertness/Iron Will reqs. I'm assuming that is an easy-ish mechanical change that can be made, if the Staff support for it exists.

Cheers.