Daggerspell mage daggers?

[Lockonnow]

Egg Shen well you need to unlock the dagger spell mage prc to pick but it is only one rogue lvl then you can pick all others with sneak attack prc

[K'yon Oblodra]

But isn't a Daggerspell mage in itself already pretty clearly defined as a caster using daggers?

What is it you want to try that would not involve rogue/wizard?

Just curious cause this prc seems to be one of those that already has a pretty clear role to it.

Agree with Lockonnow...I think? I mean, you don't actually need Rogue, I assume he's referring to the Sneak Attack 1d6 requirement.

With the current requirements, I feel railroaded into specific class combinations and into a caster-heavy version of a Daggerspell Mage. I'd like to experiment with other arrangements, but they all seem pretty questionable in terms of effectiveness.

[Lockonnow]

go to 5.22 and see what a normel wizard sense and listen when a shadow wizard come knock on the door https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as4tPad ... 6&index=39

[Egg Shen]

But isn't a Daggerspell message in itself already party clearly defined as a caster using daggers?

What is it you want to try that would not involve rogue/wizard?

Just curious cause this prc seems to be one of those that already has a pretty clear role to it.

Agree with Lockonnow...I think? I mean, you don't actually need Rogue, I assume he's referring to the Sneak Attack 1d6 requirement.

With the current requirements, I feel railroaded into specific class combinations and into a caster-heavy version of a Daggerspell Mage. I'd like to experiment with other arrangements, but they all seem pretty questionable in terms of effectiveness.

Yeah, it's a pretty clearly defined concept, but there are subtleties to even the most well defined archetype. In this particular case, I'm interested in going down the mage route as little as possible, and focusing more on the dagger/twf portion of the class. But in order to feel like I'm doing a good job at two weapon fighting, I'm not trying to have less than a 21 BAB. To achieve THAT, you need about 5 levels of a class with a high BAB mixed in (I'm looking at you Invisible Blade!). And suddenly the only thing you can do is take. . . Ranger. . . to pull off a somewhat acceptable version of what you have in mind. I admit it's a unique combo of classes and you can certainly come up with an interesting backstory to accommodate all of it, but that's what I meant about feeling railroaded.

Since most of the prestige classes that grant sneak attacks (to qualify for DSM) have a skill requirement of 8 ranks, you can't really go minimalist on the wizard levels. Cross classing the hide/ms skills means you won't get access until wizard 13? 15? Then your BAB falls off dramatically and the concept is back at square one.

[chad878262]

not really... For instance, you could go:

R11/W5/DSM10/SD4. BAB 21, PTWF, HiPS, Epic Precision to get 4d6 sneak damage against sneak immunes. Unfortunately CL is only 18 and you only have level 7 spells, but this is enough for Greater Heroism, +4 GMW making any neat dagger you find as good as epic, etc. It's dispelable by normal dispels (not lesser), but HiPS can protect against that. a wand of invisibility can be used as a back up for emergencies in some cases to avoid a dispel as well. Otherwise it works better as a Warlock since invocations can be reapplied without worrying over spell slots for RTA spells.

You could also go Wizard 5/ EK 8/A8/DSM 9. BAB 22, CL 24. Doesn't get access to Epic Precision, but does have assassin death attack, +5 GMW and level 9 spells. You can't hit DSM 10 though because you won't qualify for Assassin until level 14 and you need 8 levels of Assassin for HiPS. I play a drow similar to this, but insteadof DSM he has Arcane Trickster, giving something of the feel of a Fighter/Mage/Thief from the old 2e days. Still focuses on TWF rather than RTA spells. Biggest issue with this is it is a VERY late bloomer. at 14 you take Assassin and by 20 you have to have 3 of Assassin and DSM. So at level 20 you will be W5/EK8/A4/DSM3... or A3/DSM4...you have to decide if you want HiPS first or more DSM levels. You also don't get the benefit of free ITWF because it comes so late in the build you kind of have to take it unless you want to wait to epics for ITWF and GTWF. So it has a few weaknesses to the build, but it is possible.

Just a couple of options for you to explore more of the roguish side. There are other things you can do as well, since you aren't necessarily worried about having real high CL.

[Lockonnow]

chad878262 you dont need need hips couse you shall get listen skills so you can head those that wish to pvp from hips and sense to now it will be like this one go to 5.22 and see and lean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as4tPad ... 6&index=39

[chad878262]

chad878262 you dont need need hips couse you shall get listen skills so you can head those that wish to pvp from hips and sense to now it will be like this one go to 5.22 and see and lean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as4tPad ... 6&index=39

HiPS is to protect from dispels due to lower CL in PvE.

[Lockonnow]

yes but it is cowled to use hips

[chad878262]

yes but it is cowled to use hips

eh?

If you want a more roguish style of DSM HiPS, while not required is certainly useful... If you are saying it's cowardly, well...sneak attack.

[Juramenta]

Why do you think I'm asking for a list ?

Of course...but wouldn't you essentially have to make a list of ALL on hit effects available to DMs to create weapons with?

That's pretty much effort for just one class (feat) - Is DSM such a weak class now?
And aren't there other really weak PRCs that should be upgraded ? Like BFZealot

Shoo! Go away you!

I'm honestly hesistating about making this for warlocks, it's fine for people who don't have infinfite spells but the warlocks ...

Would only make a difference for long boss fights because the damage output per round for short fights would stay the same. So I do not see a problem with it. But to be fair I am biased .

What you can also do is implement a ability that allows you to add it for a temporary buff.
Maybe once a day the daggerspell mage can add the aditional enhancements off the daggers to RTA's for 10 mins/ DSM level.
You could exchange the almost useless arcane infusion with that ability. Well it's not completely useless but the damage you lose by not attacking that round and activating it makes it pretty useless during longer fights.

[Lockonnow]

well if you really fast i have Warrior that have sneak attack to but when i use Haste i can run somtime in to a monster so fast and it dosent see me coming before i hit it i might have some skills in M/S and some time my sneak attack work the cowled attack and some time it dosent ever i run and hit the monster but it dosent nots me before it to to late for me you know why poeple take teh 3 rogues couse of the epic feat

[Egg Shen]

not really... For instance, you could go:

R11/W5/DSM10/SD4. BAB 21, PTWF, HiPS, Epic Precision to get 4d6 sneak damage against sneak immunes. Unfortunately CL is only 18 and you only have level 7 spells, but this is enough for Greater Heroism, +4 GMW making any neat dagger you find as good as epic, etc. It's dispelable by normal dispels (not lesser), but HiPS can protect against that. a wand of invisibility can be used as a back up for emergencies in some cases to avoid a dispel as well. Otherwise it works better as a Warlock since invocations can be reapplied without worrying over spell slots for RTA spells.

You could also go Wizard 5/ EK 8/A8/DSM 9. BAB 22, CL 24. Doesn't get access to Epic Precision, but does have assassin death attack, +5 GMW and level 9 spells. You can't hit DSM 10 though because you won't qualify for Assassin until level 14 and you need 8 levels of Assassin for HiPS. I play a drow similar to this, but insteadof DSM he has Arcane Trickster, giving something of the feel of a Fighter/Mage/Thief from the old 2e days. Still focuses on TWF rather than RTA spells. Biggest issue with this is it is a VERY late bloomer. at 14 you take Assassin and by 20 you have to have 3 of Assassin and DSM. So at level 20 you will be W5/EK8/A4/DSM3... or A3/DSM4...you have to decide if you want HiPS first or more DSM levels. You also don't get the benefit of free ITWF because it comes so late in the build you kind of have to take it unless you want to wait to epics for ITWF and GTWF. So it has a few weaknesses to the build, but it is possible.

Just a couple of options for you to explore more of the roguish side. There are other things you can do as well, since you aren't necessarily worried about having real high CL.

With alignment restriction removed from Assassin, I almost forget that Shadowdancer exists. That initial rogue build would work fairly well for what I have in mind. Good call. Actually, I think that's only 20 BAB. I kept coming up with some fun builds at 19 and 20 BAB, but it just hurts my brain too much to not get 21 BAB with a ptwf build.

The EK build is solid, and is an option I've already considered. I played a very similar build long ago, but instead of DSM, Duelist. Having an additional 6 AC from Duelist made her pretty tanky, and even when dispelled, she was not an easy mark. The lack of that AC is what made me shy away from this build, and the fact that EK always seems boring to me. While I did enjoy that old sneaky gish character, I'd like to try something new and it feels too similar.

But taking away the sneak attack requirement would still open up all sorts of class combinations that I'd be interested in trying out. None of which would be OP, because the DSM class itself isn't particularly OP. After listening to Valefort, I think it's pretty clear that your touch attack spells will not trigger your Death Attack as an assassin, nor your bleeding as an IB. And it sounds like a PitA to make dagger effects (Wyvern Dagger from the UD anybody??) work, so that's not likely to be a concern either.

Maybe I'll go back to the drawing board. I'm sure there are a few combo's I haven't considered. I've been on a swashbuckler bender lately, maybe it can continue...

[Egg Shen]

Acidic Splatter and Clap of Thunder seem really intriguing for this sort of build, eh? I've never paid them any attention until now. Gives you some more flexibility at different levels to make sure you have a touch attack at your disposal, where you might not have otherwise.

Do we think the effects of those feats bypass spell resistance???

[dzidek1983]

I think they do...

[MrCravon]

I am sorry I haven't been responding to this thread even though I created it. I wanted to see where it went after my initial suggestion and not necessarily force my opinions on anyone. Somehow the discussion drifted towards the Daggerspell Mage class requirements. If you are unhappy with the requirements please make another thread to discuss it as I hope we can stay on topic here. I really like the positive response from almost everyone on adding this functionality. Valefort, thank you for looking in to this. I have seen the following on daggers from my recollection and what I posses:

1d4 Acid damage
1d6 Ligtning damage
+1/+2 Piercing damage
+1/+2 Bludging damage
+1/+2 Cold damage
Massive criticals 1/2/3/4/1d6
Bonus feat: Sneak Attack 2d6 (Maybe this already works as it gives a feat that already work)
On-Hit: Strength Drain DC=14
On-Hit: Daze DC=?
On-Hit: Blind DC=?

If you give me an example of the formatting that is needed for you to just copy/paste it in the script I can write up what I know in such a format, and maybe make it easier for you to add more if we discover some has been left out or more daggers are added.