10 level PRCs with their own spellbooks - caster levels

[Calodan]

Unfortunately I recall your previous statements about a certain everchanging Balor, so if you say that the use of UMD is very efficient or that the dispels were toned down in every area, then by default the exact opposite must be true for one or both statements. And lo and behold...

I always use UMD against the balor. It works great.

Right after he gets him to dispense his 2 MOrds and 2 GSBs.........That thing has some serious de-buffing on it.

[mrm3ntalist]

Right after he gets him to dispense his 2 MOrds and 2 GSBs.........That thing has some serious de-buffing on it.

Yeap. Using cheap clickables to bait the mords, then use shield, IMA and mirrors. That helps a melee build a lot.

Those that dream of cl30 scrolls of orb or polar ray.... yeah, that not likely to happen.

[chad878262]

So... you want to say what I said again? And no, wands are not stupidly cheap, I'll get to it later.

That wand of Improved Mage Armor costs 22500 gold pieces to make, the bone wand on top, and whatever the person crafting it wants as a commission. That is a minimum of 450 gold pieces per use, presuming you made the wand yourself and found the bone wand from random loot. A wand of Barksin costs 18000 gold pieces to make and that costs a minimum of 360 gold pieces per use, presuming you made the wand yourself and found the bone wand from random loot.

Wand Recharger... The first use has no chance of failure and after that it increases by 20% each time, so you will get a minimum of 98 uses of your wand, usually you will get 147 before it breaks. You neglected to account for this in your calculations, which will vastly decrease the cost per use.

Now it is funny that you speak of low level dispells, because acquiring that minimum of 40500 gold pieces can be something of a tall order without muling pre-existing equipment and wealth. One could argue that by the time someone starting from scratch can actually afford to get those two wands, they will be easily dispelled, and in the case of IMA, breached.

It kind of brings us back to that point how UMD is kind of pointless without mountain of gold to spare, doesn't it?

Not really, because if you consider how many uses you get it really is cheap. If it gets dispelled you can just reapply, no real harm done.

And yet again we arrive right back to the exact same point. UMD consumables are useless without that mountain of gold to spare.

Valefort has said the same, but I'll repeat that a 'mountain of gold' is not strictly required. The Cloakwood run (without Chaos) and the Lions Way (Trolls/Gnolls) can be done in mid levels and will routinely give enough items to make ~10-15,000 gold in a one hour slot of time, plus an occasional item worth 5-30 K selling through Mudd. So really a maximum of 3 hour investment for a mid level PC over the course of 3 resets/play times will net you enough gold to buy a wand of IMA just selling items to Thunderhammer. If you chose not to do so it's up to you, but making enough gold for a few wands is not difficult and they last a LONG time.

Consumables increase the areas you can go to by making you more survivable and effectively higher level (better saves, better AC, better AB, etc.) If you chose not to use them then you will play in areas that are lower CR which is fine, but calling them useless is just accepting you don't know how to use them properly. Calling out the expense of wands without factoring in the recharger is inaccurate as well.

[Sun Wukong]

Right after he gets him to dispense his 2 MOrds and 2 GSBs.........That thing has some serious de-buffing on it.

Yeap. Using cheap clickables to bait the mords, then use shield, IMA and mirrors. That helps a melee build a lot.

Those that dream of cl30 scrolls of orb or polar ray.... yeah, that not likely to happen.

A scroll of Polar Ray scribed in game, costs 4000 gold pieces, and comes with caster level of 20. 20d6 = 70~ on average. 30d6 = 105~ on average. Moreover, the damage from orbs is capped and those spells ignore spell resistance so there really is no point to have caster level 30 orb scrolls.

[Steve]

So, the answer therefore is: the Player needs to play smart; screw whatever else. Apply player smarts to whatever Character you may play. Plus, rely on mechanical OOC of how a mob/Boss "works." End of story.

[mrm3ntalist]

Those that dream of cl30 scrolls of orb or polar ray.... yeah, that not likely to happen.

A scroll of Polar Ray scribed in game, costs 4000 gold pieces, and comes with caster level of 20. 20d6 = 70~ on average. 30d6 = 105~ on average. Moreover, the damage from orbs is capped and those spells ignore spell resistance so there really is no point to have caster level 30 orb scrolls.

Fine. I dont think CL30 damaging spells should exist, you think there is no point of having them. So for different reasons it seems like we agree on this.

About the buffs, the decision to not have undispellable buffs was made a long time ago.

So ye. Everything works as intended.

So, the answer therefore is: the Player needs to play smart; screw whatever else. Apply player smarts to whatever Character you may play. Plus, rely on mechanical OOC of how a mob/Boss "works." End of story.

Thats part of the answer. When you make a build, dont you make OOC decisions? When you go against certain enemies dont you use specific buffs such as immunities etc? The asnwer is yes to both.

[chad878262]

You can get CL30 buffs through elixirs, they are simply extremely expensive and most players won't use them since they can do what has been described previously, using cheap wards to get the enemy to waste it's Mords/Breaches/Greater Dispels and then apply their 'real' buffs.

[Sun Wukong]

Wand Recharger... The first use has no chance of failure and after that it increases by 20% each time, so you will get a minimum of 98 uses of your wand, usually you will get 147 before it breaks. You neglected to account for this in your calculations, which will vastly decrease the cost per use.

Wand recharger, doesn't it cost gold to use? At least it did years ago, and then it has been broken, fixed and what not. As I said before, I do not really have a character that makes use of UMD myself - I make builds that do not need it.

Not really, because if you consider how many uses you get it really is cheap. If it gets dispelled you can just reapply, no real harm done.

Unfortunately you cannot craft a wand with just 10, 20, 30, or 40 uses. You must first have the money to get all 50 uses. You are too focused on the cost per use that you fail to see the forest for the trees.

Valefort has said the same, but I'll repeat that a 'mountain of gold' is not strictly required. The Cloakwood run (without Chaos) and the Lions Way (Trolls/Gnolls) can be done in mid levels and will routinely give enough items to make ~10-15,000 gold in a one hour slot of time, plus an occasional item worth 5-30 K selling through Mudd. So really a maximum of 3 hour investment for a mid level PC over the course of 3 resets/play times will net you enough gold to buy a wand of IMA just selling items to Thunderhammer. If you chose not to do so it's up to you, but making enough gold for a few wands is not difficult and they last a LONG time.

Have you considered how that mid-level adventurer might have other expenses to consider as well? After all, you never know what gets put up into the consignment store, or auctioned off on the forums, or sold by an in game NPC merchant. You have said it yourself, wands can go poof, so what are you going to focus on early on? Equipment that you upgragde whenever you can afford something slightly better, or something that can go poof, and possible leave you to enect naked bard larping without being a naked bard.

And as Valefort said before, you have to first figure out what are safe areas to use UMD. How many dispels bosses have, etc... Something that is much more convenient to do as a level 30 character freed from the experience penalty on death, equipment amassed over the years, while sitting on that mountain of left over gold.

Consumables increase the areas you can go to by making you more survivable and effectively higher level (better saves, better AC, better AB, etc.) If you chose not to use them then you will play in areas that are lower CR which is fine, but calling them useless is just accepting you don't know how to use them properly. Calling out the expense of wands without factoring in the recharger is inaccurate as well.

I call UMD consumables useless because of cost and unreliability. That scroll of Polar Ray deals about 35~ damage less than a caster level 30 Polar Ray, but it does cost that 4000 to scribe. Now, let us have look at that evershifting Balor with 10/- Cold and 5000 HP. If all your scrolls deal their average damage, and the critter doesn't suddenly have regeneration, you would need 84 scrolls of Polar Ray. That is 84*4000 = 336000 gold pieces down the sink.

Now, let us assume we have a Sorcerer with 34 Charisma scribing those scrolls. You have 8 level 8 spells. If it takes about 20 minutes for the rest timer to reset at level 30, then it would take about 3 hours to scribe those scrolls.

And let us not forget how costly the Master Alchemist potions can be... to a point where they are only worth it against some boss monsters, and to repeat your own words, you can already do loot runs while ignoring any bosses you might encounter on the way, such as Chaos in the Cloakwood.

And finally we have the wands, out of which only a select handful are somewhat useful under specific conditions, and even then you can do without.

So yeah, I insist. UMD is useless.

[Steve]

So, the answer therefore is: the Player needs to play smart; screw whatever else. Apply player smarts to whatever Character you may play. Plus, rely on mechanical OOC of how a mob/Boss "works." End of story.

Thats part of the answer. When you make a build, dont you make OOC decisions? When you go against certain enemies dont you use specific buffs such as immunities etc? The asnwer is yes to both.

With all honesty, I do my utmost to think of the Character as they are in-character, and build according to that. I can't stand min/maxing for the sake of extra oomph in power. I do not take Feats unless they seem to match the Character, and PrCs as well.

I know full well this choice in Building is my own, and that it will hinder my Character when experiencing Content of the BGTSCC Server—if it was a PnP Character, it would have no problems whatsoever.

That said, thinking of my "way" in Building, and then contrasting that to the state of and possibilities for change related to, CL levels versus Content (mobs/bosses), there is a realm of possibility where higher CLs via consumables—for example—would assist my Characters to be able to suffer the entirety of BGTSCC Content.

For many years, I have played and been satisfied with my choices, which have, to this day, meant that I have never seen the White Dragon, and only been in the Frost Giants lair about 4 times, and only to the Vault of the Dead about 3 times. That's in over what...6 years?

So yeah, from my perspective of things, BGTSCC caters more towards Player Intelligence, than Character Whatever-Ability (or lack of it). The only variance in this, is when one actually aligns with a DM that will take time to observe your Character and perceive the types of challenges that would make that Character shine or darken (which is a glorious thing, natch). But one simply cannot play on BGTSCC expecting that.

CL 25 limit for elixirs/potions/scrolls is not the same as the past UMD Dispel Bug. However, it does define an acceptable risk v. reward, in my opinion (the 25% dispel chance...higher with Mords). It also literally and directly helps out—whether you want to see it IC or OOC—those Characters based on non-powerful Class/PrC combinations, that defy logic because hey!, they are interesting CHARACTERS to play.

CL 10 or 14 for PrCs with a minor spellbook, is a limitation. If you as a Player plan on never getting about Level 16 with such a Character, then this limitation is actually no limitation at all. But if you wish to carry on to the epic content of the Server, then you will find yourself hampered. That is how I see it.

If the goal is for Players to just "get smart" about how they play on BGTSCC, fine. It then simply becomes more a general video game, to master then move on. But since BGTSCC is about role-play, and that role-play takes place in an environment. And when that environment caters to OOC gaming more than IC experience being able to progress within it, then...the paradigm shifts to a mechanics > role-play environment.

And I just do not believe that is what people are going for...or is it?

[Sun Wukong]

And the funny thing is, as long as I have been on this server, I have maintained the opinion that UMD is useless here. There were no blank scrolls, no bone wands, and you could run out of charges without a wand chargers, etc... Low durations, and what you got was almost always few caster levels short of giving their full effect... or any effect better than a lower level version... Then they added mobs with dispels and when those didn't work, breaches... And now those do get dispelled.


So you could kind of expect me to be happy that UMD is useless. But as I said pages ago, I do not think UMD should be as useless as it is.

[chad878262]

Wand recharger, doesn't it cost gold to use? At least it did years ago, and then it has been broken, fixed and what not. As I said before, I do not really have a character that makes use of UMD myself - I make builds that do not need it.

It costs gold, but the amount is negligible. You are not looking at spending 10K to recharge, more like between 1-5K if I recall. If the wand breaks I don't know if you even still get charged, I think you only pay if it works.

Unfortunately you cannot craft a wand with just 10, 20, 30, or 40 uses. You must first have the money to get all 50 uses. You are too focused on the cost per use that you fail to see the forest for the trees.

Have you considered how that mid-level adventurer might have other expenses to consider as well? After all, you never know what gets put up into the consignment store, or auctioned off on the forums, or sold by an in game NPC merchant. You have said it yourself, wands can go poof, so what are you going to focus on early on? Equipment that you upgragde whenever you can afford something slightly better, or something that can go poof, and possible leave you to enect naked bard larping without being a naked bard.

Sure I do. As I stated, you can make enough money for the wand of your choice by spending 3 hours of your in game time looting chests at or below your CR level. Less if you know what you're doing, but simply looting a bunch of chests, even in hilltop as a level 8 chracter will net you over 5K on average. You are too focused on the expense without seeing the benefit. Using a wand in the level 7-9 range can allow you to take on Minotaurs, orcs, gnolls, etc to gain more XP with an extremely decreased chance of death. So you can get MORE XP, MORE chests to loot (and thus MORE gold) to buy other items you are trying to acquire. It is simply a matter of what is more important. While obtaining a +4 Full Plate might be your ultimate goal, a wand of IMA gives higher AC with mundane full plate and is less expensive. Meanwhile, using the wand you have access to more chests which you can add to any other loot run you do in order to acquire gold more quickly so you can then afford your long term armor, weapon, and other equipment.



Rather than keep quoting I will simply say that I have done both, no consumables and with consumables... Consumables far and away increase your ability to gather more gold far more than the cost of obtaining them. Even on my Bard I use wands, potions and scrolls to supplement what he casts himself. Using them keeps him alive when he would otherwise be in the fugue and allows him to go places he would otherwise be far less successful.

[Calodan]

Wand recharger, doesn't it cost gold to use? At least it did years ago, and then it has been broken, fixed and what not. As I said before, I do not really have a character that makes use of UMD myself - I make builds that do not need it.

It costs gold, but the amount is negligible. You are not looking at spending 10K to recharge, more like between 1-5K if I recall. If the wand breaks I don't know if you even still get charged, I think you only pay if it works.

Unfortunately you cannot craft a wand with just 10, 20, 30, or 40 uses. You must first have the money to get all 50 uses. You are too focused on the cost per use that you fail to see the forest for the trees.

Have you considered how that mid-level adventurer might have other expenses to consider as well? After all, you never know what gets put up into the consignment store, or auctioned off on the forums, or sold by an in game NPC merchant. You have said it yourself, wands can go poof, so what are you going to focus on early on? Equipment that you upgragde whenever you can afford something slightly better, or something that can go poof, and possible leave you to enect naked bard larping without being a naked bard.

Sure I do. As I stated, you can make enough money for the wand of your choice by spending 3 hours of your in game time looting chests at or below your CR level. Less if you know what you're doing, but simply looting a bunch of chests, even in hilltop as a level 8 chracter will net you over 5K on average. You are too focused on the expense without seeing the benefit. Using a wand in the level 7-9 range can allow you to take on Minotaurs, orcs, gnolls, etc to gain more XP with an extremely decreased chance of death. So you can get MORE XP, MORE chests to loot (and thus MORE gold) to buy other items you are trying to acquire. It is simply a matter of what is more important. While obtaining a +4 Full Plate might be your ultimate goal, a wand of IMA gives higher AC with mundane full plate and is less expensive. Meanwhile, using the wand you have access to more chests which you can add to any other loot run you do in order to acquire gold more quickly so you can then afford your long term armor, weapon, and other equipment.



Rather than keep quoting I will simply say that I have done both, no consumables and with consumables... Consumables far and away increase your ability to gather more gold far more than the cost of obtaining them. Even on my Bard I use wands, potions and scrolls to supplement what he casts himself. Using them keeps him alive when he would otherwise be in the fugue and allows him to go places he would otherwise be far less successful.

Wand recharger costs roughly 50% of the original price to make. So if a wand costs 20k to make IE the spell component charge then the recharge costs 10k.

[mrm3ntalist]

So you could kind of expect me to be happy that UMD is useless. But as I said pages ago, I do not think UMD should be as useless as it is.

I dont expect anything. There is a difference in opinion. You consider them useless and want back undispellable umd, I consider UMD situational and i dont want them to return to their pre dispel fix era, where one could buff to godmode with undispelable umd.

If the goal is for Players to just "get smart" about how they play on BGTSCC, fine. It then simply becomes more a general video game, to master then move on. But since BGTSCC is about role-play, and that role-play takes place in an environment. And when that environment caters to OOC gaming more than IC experience being able to progress within it, then...the paradigm shifts to a mechanics > role-play environment.

And I just do not believe that is what people are going for...or is it?

Its not quantum pgysics. Its NWN2. Does it take much to realise that you can use UMD against the dragon in the Serpent Hills without fear of dispells? Or against the Queen? Or you can clear the whole frost keep and only get dispelled from FK. The troll claws.

There arent many areas where dispells are problematic.

[Sun Wukong]

I dont expect anything. There is a difference in opinion. You consider them useless and want back undispellable umd, I consider UMD situational and i dont want them to return to their pre dispel fix era, where one could buff to godmode with undispelable umd.

Sigh... I wonder if I should take direct quotes of my previous posts just to show you wrong? Or perhaps reiterate what I have already said, things that went unquoted by you lot, etc... Oh I know, I have not tried that yet!

I dont expect anything.

Cannot be verified at this moment.

There is a difference in opinion.

True, this BGTSCC, people disagree on many things.

You consider them useless

Mostly true, as UMD is mostly useless, as I have stated few scenarios where it does server a use.

and want back undispellable umd

False. What I want is for UMD to be more useful and for that purpose a multitude of suggestions have been. Some of them produced more dispel resistance than others, being tied to skill instead of just HD, and of course... Perhaps my favorite one yet. Reduce the crafting/brewing/scribing costs to a tenth.

I consider UMD situational

True, use of UMD is situational, as it has been established as such by all parties involved.

and i dont want them to return to their pre dispel fix era,

Cannot be verified at this moment.

where one could buff to godmode with undispelable umd.

False, the spells on the breach will be stripped away with a breach, and HD of 30 only produced 50% resistance per spell against a Mordenkainen's Disjunction cast at caster level of 30.

[Steve]

Its not quantum pgysics. Its NWN2. Does it take much to realise that you can use UMD against the dragon in the Serpent Hills without fear of dispells? Or against the Queen? Or you can clear the whole frost keep and only get dispelled from FK. The troll claws.

There arent many areas where dispells are problematic.

That's true! It isn't quantum physics. However, in order to realize that one can use UMD consumables against the dragon in the Serpent Hills, I at least, need a RP reason to go to the Serpent Hills. And not just cause it is on my OOC daily/weekly/monthly grind route.

And what Queen are you talking about? My Characters know nothing about any Queen...and even if they did, would that Queen be constantly there...wherever there is?

I love ya M3nt, but you still apply OOC knowledge and Player intelligence to everything. And I, for one, maybe there are others, would like to see the Server Content through Character eyes, and not Player eyes.