Server quiet?

[Fury_US]

That, sadly, would require a way higher maturity level and a lot of people finally letting go of the concept of "DM bias" when it comes to 'Team good' or 'Team evil' (pro tip: they hate us all equally, because they are DMs and our suffering is their candy).

I find it also works much better on a server where the RP is 100% the focus, which means somewhat smaller populations, which translates into more DM focus. I would venture to guess that nearly 80% of a DM's time in the server is entirely delegated to solving player issues, which is necessary, mind, but it limits their time, especially when the drama hits the fan (pro tip: it always hits the fan. Always.)

In other words, we are the reason we can't have nice things.

[Deathgrowl]

In other words, we are the reason we can't have nice things.

[Rinzler]

That, sadly, would require a way higher maturity level and a lot of people finally letting go of the concept of "DM bias.".

Let's be real. DM bias is a thing, just like parents having a favorite child is a thing. It's just an unspoken rule that we never admit it lol. That being said, you're right, people just need to suck it up.

[aaron22]

the thing is you do not need a DM to have the conflict you are looking for. what you need is a couple mature guild leaders that can discuss OOC and come to a compromise of understanding to build a fun and interesting conflict that involves the two guilds. one that will be willing to give and take for the betterment of the players in your collective guilds.

[Calodan]

When guilds stop playing against each to WIN but instead treat it more like a dance to be joined again and again against each then the guild conflicts will be fun and something DMs can oversee but each guild is always playing to destroy the other or put it down forever....Cartoon evil may not be the evil or cartoon good may not be the good we want to explore but that is ultimate example of god vs evil for the dance. Or see Joker and Batman relationship in Lego Batman. Each needs the other or they would not be what they are......

The Walking dead is getting ready to show that with Neagan and Rick over the next few seasons. Neagan is the anti Rick. Without him Rick will not be a good guy. You can see that in earlier seasons where Rick tends to be a little cold hearted but with Neagan around Rick looks like a saint.....

[Sun Wukong]

Alright, you find your two mature guild leaders that have their OOC agreement. Now, what makes you think these two mature guild leaders have any control over the reaction that their guild members might have over the outcome of the conflict?

Guild leaders themselves are not all that creates a guild, and this statement is not an understatement of the importance of a good guild leader, but rather a statement of the how all members with their time investment have shaped the guild. The leader of the guild might be prefectly happy to see the whole guild destroyed, or see some grievous harm done to it, and there have been many such guild leaders in this server's history - but that doesn't mean that all guild members are automatically on board with such a gamble for sake of momentary 'PvP' excitement. Let alone the negative outcome of it, and I could just point towards the tumultous history of the Red Wizards on this server among other guilds, factions, and events.

And on the other hand, why seek conflict if it brings no resolution or any actual outcome? Two factions could be beating each other with big sticks whenever they encounter each other, but what of it actually? Even if you send these fellows to their starting locations, you will likely meet them again the next day, and the day after that. The excitement will pass and turn into mere annoyance.

Either way there will be OOC drama and it is not just DM heads on the public opinion chopping block. It just goes further to throwing unwarranted accusations of god-modding, meta-gaming, nonexistent roleplay at fellow players. I have known several great, wonderful players who stopped playing on this server because of the endless barrage of unsubstantiated garbage thrown at them. Not because they had done anything wrong, but because a loud group of players decided that they had done something wrong, without ever really giving clear descriptions of what, but instead spread lies and far-reaching assumptions about them until they just had to leave, some more voluntarily than others.

Anyhow, yeah, there are a lot of new games out. Then there is work, school, etc. It'll jump back up with the seasonal holidays, etc.

[aaron22]

Alright, you find your two mature guild leaders that have their OOC agreement. Now, what makes you think these two mature guild leaders have any control over the reaction that their guild members might have over the outcome of the conflict?

the guild members may not like it or they may love it. that is called being a guild leader. you do things but you do it for them. give them the opportunity to feel like they are in their character's eyes. Highs, Lows, Conflict, Peace. Give them the opportunity to RP a lot of circumstances that can have an effect.

Guild leaders themselves are not all that creates a guild, and this statement is not an understatement of the importance of a good guild leader, but rather a statement of the how all members with their time investment have shaped the guild. The leader of the guild might be prefectly happy to see the whole guild destroyed, or see some grievous harm done to it, and there have been many such guild leaders in this server's history - but that doesn't mean that all guild members are automatically on board with such a gamble for sake of momentary 'PvP' excitement. Let alone the negative outcome of it, and I could just point towards the tumultous history of the Red Wizards on this server among other guilds, factions, and events.

And the Red Wizards have been through a lot and have the world against them, yet they still survive. I'd take that.

And on the other hand, why seek conflict if it brings no resolution or any actual outcome? Two factions could be beating each other with big sticks whenever they encounter each other, but what of it actually? Even if you send these fellows to their starting locations, you will likely meet them again the next day, and the day after that. The excitement will pass and turn into mere annoyance.

This is what happens every time you log in. this is the server we all live in. A lot of people share the same pipe dream of making a permanent change on the server and are disappointed.

Either way there will be OOC drama and it is not just DM heads on the public opinion chopping block. It just goes further to throwing unwarranted accusations of god-modding, meta-gaming, nonexistent roleplay at fellow players. I have known several great, wonderful players who stopped playing on this server because of the endless barrage of unsubstantiated garbage thrown at them. Not because they had done anything wrong, but because a loud group of players decided that they had done something wrong, without ever really giving clear descriptions of what, but instead spread lies and far-reaching assumptions about them until they just had to leave, some more voluntarily than others.

And that is why the guild leaders are the ones that do this. keep the players out of the nonsense as best they can so they can just enjoy the ride.

Anyhow, yeah, there are a lot of new games out. Then there is work, school, etc. It'll jump back up with the seasonal holidays, etc.

Yep see you then

[Fury_US]

That, sadly, would require a way higher maturity level and a lot of people finally letting go of the concept of "DM bias.".

Let's be real. DM bias is a thing, just like parents having a favorite child is a thing. It's just an unspoken rule that we never admit it lol. That being said, you're right, people just need to suck it up.

You took the sentence out of context, which is sad because I was trying to be very specific with the statement. Bias exists because there will always be a case of "I like this player" vs "why does this player have to be such a pain in my @ss?" That said, however, after being here two years I have discovered the "team good" vs "team evil" bias to be largely fictional. Each side throws in requests and each side has to wait for ages on DM deliberation to see any advancement, if at all.

[Ordren]

Alright, you find your two mature guild leaders that have their OOC agreement. Now, what makes you think these two mature guild leaders have any control over the reaction that their guild members might have over the outcome of the conflict?

Guild leaders themselves are not all that creates a guild, and this statement is not an understatement of the importance of a good guild leader, but rather a statement of the how all members with their time investment have shaped the guild. The leader of the guild might be prefectly happy to see the whole guild destroyed, or see some grievous harm done to it, and there have been many such guild leaders in this server's history - but that doesn't mean that all guild members are automatically on board with such a gamble for sake of momentary 'PvP' excitement. Let alone the negative outcome of it, and I could just point towards the tumultous history of the Red Wizards on this server among other guilds, factions, and events.

And on the other hand, why seek conflict if it brings no resolution or any actual outcome? Two factions could be beating each other with big sticks whenever they encounter each other, but what of it actually? Even if you send these fellows to their starting locations, you will likely meet them again the next day, and the day after that. The excitement will pass and turn into mere annoyance.

Either way there will be OOC drama and it is not just DM heads on the public opinion chopping block. It just goes further to throwing unwarranted accusations of god-modding, meta-gaming, nonexistent roleplay at fellow players. I have known several great, wonderful players who stopped playing on this server because of the endless barrage of unsubstantiated garbage thrown at them. Not because they had done anything wrong, but because a loud group of players decided that they had done something wrong, without ever really giving clear descriptions of what, but instead spread lies and far-reaching assumptions about them until they just had to leave, some more voluntarily than others.

Anyhow, yeah, there are a lot of new games out. Then there is work, school, etc. It'll jump back up with the seasonal holidays, etc.

You just managed to sum up everything i find bad on the server in one post. +1.

I find it hilarious that people cant take a loss. Them Guild halls scattering the tradeway like monuments to previous beloved PC's endless til the server dies out due to people holding your opinion Sun Wukong.

I also find it sad that instead of getting to know each others pc's and actually living out some roleplay as our characters, people are solely focused on their own personal goals for their PC.

"no point in talking to that guy or do anything with him as i know oocly it wont further my pc's goals or may put me in confrontational rp situation because hes of opposite alignment of my pc."

For me RP is the main attraction of the server and im just not having enough of it to play more than the little while of grinding alone (because what else is there when youre solo and being orc you aint allowed at FAI).

[Steve]

I believe that if a good story was built behind and for this desired conflict role-play, players would line up to participate AND put the lives on their Character(s) "on the line."

Thing is that recently, campaigns and meaningful storylines are disappearing from BGTSCC. Sorry to say it, but it's true.

In the last year alone, some of the most invested RPers who DROVE storylines have either totally quit or just barely log on. That isn't to say that new players can easily fill those shoes, but the Server NEEDS to show the way through example, through results from invested RP, through rewards from invested RP.

Invested RP, imho, is not just showing up "in character" to have a drink at the bar, or sit around the table discussing evil plans as nauseum. Invested RP is where action is taken to further storylines and support OTHERS involvement in said storylines.

DMs are real good at setting up storylines, but it is difficult for them to complete or tailor events when players are not invested in making those campaigns live. Too many players log on to Loot Farm, only making an RP effort when the DM logs on, or the guild "leader" logs on.

I guarantee you that 99% of Players are on BGTSCC to be part of a meaningful storyline. Their Character may live simply to see the result of that storyline...but their has to be a result, you know? Campaigns that die short before a true end, are the rest Killer of RP. Trust me, I've had 5 DM campaigns implode because the DM quit, many times because the players they I trusted to make an effort to forward the RP, also dropped the ball. Bummer, right?

Essentially, what I'm saying is the Server is only quiet if YOU let it be.

[Glowfire]

I mostly enjoy character development roleplay. No grand world shattering events... my best RP memories are from moments when others have greatly affected my character. I love intrigue RP and how it's so far reaching (my drow knows more about surface characters than my surface character does) but I stay for the character development.

Meet others, make your own fun. Don't rely on someone else to create that fun for you.


Guild vs guild, I'm sceptical about it. I don't think it's worked out well at all in the past. I enjoy more 'cold war' stance. Stir up crap for each other but without the whole 'war' aspects aka PvP.

[metaquad4]

Do you guys really, really want this? Because it has a tendency so far to end up with mainly OOC drama, and then it goes further to throwing unwarranted accusations of favouritism at DMs. I know at least one great, objective DM who stepped down because of the endless barrage of unsubstantiated garbage thrown at them. Not because they had done anything wrong, but because a loud group of players decided that the DM had done something wrong, without ever really giving clear descriptions of what, but instead spread lies and far-reaching assumptions about the DM.

If you really, really want DM supported intrigue, you have to accept that you're not privy to the whole picture the same way as the DM is. If your opponents are winning, it's a good chance they simply are picking the more reasonable path.

I don't know about the other people, I can only speak for myself. And I've already played on a server where this is the case and it worked very well. Though, the playerbase there was never as ego-driven and "whiney" as they are here. Also they had a different DM system there (DMs being responsible for specific areas, a DM for X city, a DM for Y zone, etc.). And the DMs there were willing to support player-driven scenarios (like a player dominating a tribe of trolls, then having them help that player blockade a bridge and demand a toll for crossing).

I think it would do some good to tell the playerbase to "stfu, stop complaining, and grow up". The issue with maturity is on both the staff and player's shoulders. If the staff wants players to act like adults, they need to treat the players like adults and not indulge their BS. If their BS isn't dignified with a serious response, they likely won't fling any of it since it'd be a waste of time. I'm willing to bet that players act the way they do on this server because the (various) staff(s) ha(ve)s a history of indulging their worse behaviors.

Its quite clear that the staff doesn't trust the playerbase and the feeling is mutual (as these types of issues and the fact that we have certain rules that we shouldn't have to have make clear). That kind of issue should be #1 on the platter of issues to solve, before even bug fixes. If we do want to be able to make the most of this game and what it offers, we need to be able to play with each other in different ways, without immediately throwing a tantrum when things don't go our way like a bunch of grade school children. This -is- a very serious issue.

So, the staff needs to treat players more like adults and empower them to solve their own issues (unless they are physically unable to, like reporting possible corruption to a HDM). When a player has an issue with another player that two reasonable people should be able to resolve, give them time to solve it even when they report in about it. Tell them to work it out with the other player, then report back. Give them a time limit, if you really need to, before DMs step in. If DMs step in, bring down the hammer on both of them (rarely is an issue with people so one sided that one party has 100% of the blame). Encourage people to figure out their own solutions to their problems, in essence. We won't know if the players can or can't do it until we try it out.

[Hoihe]

In elementary school, kids yell "Don't tell on me baby!"

In adult world..

Toxic coworker?

Tell HR, get a small bonus for using proper channels and improving workplace atmosphere

Punch the idiot, get fired.

Get into an argument with an idiot - management gets pissed, you both get pay docked.

I don't know which is more mature. Oh, "Don't tell on me baby!" Yes, it must be. Truly.

That, sadly, would require a way higher maturity level and a lot of people finally letting go of the concept of "DM bias.".

Let's be real. DM bias is a thing, just like parents having a favorite child is a thing. It's just an unspoken rule that we never admit it lol. That being said, you're right, people just need to suck it up.

Speaking as former DM Seren here...

Do you know what killed my enjoyment of DMing? My fear of being accused of bias and favoritism. I explicitly avoided running events for people I played with, and tried to push them out of plots if they got into my plots actively, and tried running stuff for people I am at IC odds with to avoid favoritism. Then, after running 3 events for that guild, I stopped running for them - especially since even those 3 events were enough for people to whine that they got too much attention (let's not even speak about the catapults they received as DM reward!).

This whining was done by our lovely "Team Unloved Evil" spokespeople, and the guild I loved running events for was "Team what is morality oh more gold" "technically evil".


If you complain about bias, you don't know what bias is. Ask Charraj about the DM team before he drew tabula rasa for a new team.

[Rinzler]

I wasn't complaining I was merely stating it's not entirely unavoidable considering we're human beings! Nothing but love for current and former DMs.

[Darkwind]

Though, the playerbase there was never as ego-driven and "whiney" as they are here.

I think it would do some good to tell the playerbase to "stfu, stop complaining, and grow up". The issue with maturity is on both the staff and player's shoulders. If the staff wants players to act like adults, they need to treat the players like adults and not indulge their BS. If their BS isn't dignified with a serious response, they likely won't fling any of it since it'd be a waste of time. I'm willing to bet that players act the way they do on this server because the (various) staff(s) ha(ve)s a history of indulging their worse behaviors.

You've distilled the essence and crux of the problem into a sentence and a paragraph. The other 4 pages here are merely fluff and window dressing. Until that (up arrow) above is rectified the rest of it is pure mental masturbation at best.

You need only search here in the last year alone not to mention prior to that to see this theme repeated ad infinitum. There are a comfortable few who wield comically outsized power as players and "management" bends to their whims like a reed in the wind. (hat tip: Atredies)

This is not new, and likely not going anywhere. So the more advanced plotting and long arc conflicts many (perhaps most) wish for, will never come to fruition. The mass exodus of some of the best DMs / staff this server had to offer a while back is proof positive things are very dysfunctional.

My only and best advice is, work within the system as it is since it won't be changing anytime soon, or don't and move on. I chose option 2. I will say that in spite of this serious (and largely ignored) issue, management does tend to be liberal about listening, if not acting. There are a bevy of threads decrying this same said situation and though some may be locked, none have been memory holed / deleted.

That single thing alone, gives me hope for a future where this would be a "dream server" for the many and not the few.

My 2 coppers from about a year of casual observation / play.