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Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:22 pm
by thids
Paladin roleplay rules on this server are taken strictly and only from the 3rd edition. Complete paladin is neither a FR specific source, nor does it pertain to the rules enforced, it should be used as nothing more than a guideline for those who want to use it.
That all said, Eldath is NG, which by default does sponsor paladins, I see no issues with including it. By some "pacifism" logic here, Eldath couldn't have followers among plenty of classes, and yet she does. Just keep in mind when roleplaying such a character that you are not a cleric of Eldath, you are a Lawful Good paladin first and foremost. It is your duty to promote only the most lawful and good aspects of her faith.
Granted, nothing stops you from making a cleric/paladin of Eldath on the server, but in pnp this is one of the reasons for paladin multiclassing restrictions. I highly doubt deities like Hoar, Sune and Eldath would have cleric/paladins.
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:09 pm
by Tsidkenu
I could see a paladin becoming a cleric if they managed to survive long enough to get too old to fight, yet still wanted to maintain involvement in their lifelong religious endeavour, but not really the other way around.
Not that it really matters; people are free to make up whatever background story they want here. As long as the DMs pass it, it's fine.
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:00 am
by Arn
thids wrote:Paladin roleplay rules on this server are taken strictly and only from the 3rd edition.
The part about only 3rd edition is good to know, but I can't find that ruling on the forums (but I only looked in the server rules and the record of DM decisions). Can you provide a link?
Edit: After searching more deeply, I'm pretty sure that ruling doesn't exist. Maybe you're referring to something you consider to be server tradition? I had honestly been under the impression that this server uses a weird lore hybrid of 2E and 3E, given our unique place on the FR timeline. It might be helpful to have a DM ruling about whether we follow 2E lore, 3E lore, or both (or maybe a ruling that both can be used, but if they contradict, one of them is controlling).
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:36 pm
by Ravial
I don't often speak in these kinds of threads, but I just want to make some clarifications, before someone assumes something must be 100% true for Forgotten Realms.
Eldath, yeah, should be allowed paladins. However the ethos posted by you on the first pages, Arn, that is taken from Paladin's Handbook is invalid in terms of Forgotten Realms. In FR? Paladins don't need to seek peaceful ways out of combat at all. In fact, they can even conduct what someone believing in subjective morality (which doesn't really work on FR) can call
genocides on monster races, such as goblins, orcs, bugbears and worgs. Knights of the Shadowy Cloak are doing -exactly that-, for example. They do not believe monsters are redeemable at all, thus they spend their time to eradicate them completely.
Mielikkans believe, in the same way, that trolls are completely unnatural and only destroy all that is good and natural, thus her entire faith works on wiping Trolls off the face of Faerun. And Mielikki also can have paladins.
As for what Thids is speaking about...
viewtopic.php?p=712951#p712951
viewtopic.php?p=564250#p564250
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:29 pm
by Arn
Thank you for the links! I think it's worthwhile to post the first link in its entirety, since it clearly renders my citation to The Complete Paladin's Handbook invalid, and people should be aware of it. I have also edited the OP to reflect this information.
Ravial's first link, to a post by DM Dialectic:
DM Dialectic wrote:There is a lot of unclear information in here as to what is enforced paladin code according to the DM Team.
To be clear, the only DM Team enforced paladin code on this server that you should rely upon is the below basic information, if you have clarification questions beyond this then please PM the DM Team with your questions.
The only aspect of paladin code (which is defined to many different degrees in different canon Forgotten Realms lore sources) that the DM Team enforces on this server is the basic paladin code from the Player's Handbook 3.5, 44:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents...
----
This PHB code (+ Dogma) is the paladin code that the DM Team enforces.
If you have clarification questions about any aspect of the basic paladin code enforced quoted above, please PM the DM Team with your questions. The DM Team has posted some clarification notes below as well for public viewing.
The DM Team also recommends reading the simple definitions of alignments in the first post of this linked thread in the Roleplaying Guides forums:
viewtopic.php?f=421&t=7349
The DM Team has some publicly posted information clarifying a bit more from the DM Team perspective on paladin code here in the Roleplaying Guides forums:
Subject: Paladin Questions
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:22 am
by thids
Here it is stated clearly by DM Golem:
viewtopic.php?f=421&t=47948
Also, a good thread to put paladin questions and discussions in! I'd recommend poking the DM Team after doing so, as the thread has not been used for a while.
edit: gd it Arn! You even posted in that thread 4 months ago
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:08 am
by Arn
thids wrote:gd it Arn! You even posted in that thread 4 months ago
Pfft, four months in internet time is like forever!
(How worried should I be about early dementia if I legit forgot that thread even existed?
)
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:28 am
by Arn
So I dunno if paladins will be able to choose Eldath, but I figured out a way to do similar RP to a paladin of Eldath! Hospitaler of Eldath?
They're supposed to defend pilgrims and stuff (like a paladin might?), and nothing in the Hospitaler class description seems incompatible with Eldath's dogma:
Hospitaler wrote:Hospitalers are a fighting force of necessity, sworn to poverty, obedience, and the defense of those in their care. It is the duty of knights hospitaler to protect people traveling on religious pilgrimages. Over the years, this single duty has expanded to include the construction and administration of hospitals and refugee facilities.
So they're a fighting force like paladins generally are, but only when necessary. It seems they mostly engage in violence when defending others. And the construction of hospitals and whatnot could be a good opportunity for an Eldathyn to share Eldath's beneficial things:
Thoughts?
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:30 pm
by Endelyon
We'll get Paladins of Eldath enabled. I think it's a simple change, so I'll try to get it rolled into the next update.
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:10 pm
by whatsittoya
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:13 pm
by Arn
(Thanks!
)
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:39 pm
by Arn
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:26 am
by Arn
thids wrote:Granted, nothing stops you from making a cleric/paladin of Eldath on the server, but in pnp this is one of the reasons for paladin multiclassing restrictions.
I tried that, actually. Turns out if you make a Cleric of Eldath and then multi-class into Paladin, the deity selection screen comes up again, and Eldath is not a selectable deity. You can't complete the level-up without selecting another deity.
Once the proposed change goes into effect, this won't matter. But for now, I thought it would be good to know.
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me out)
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:28 am
by Arn
The best necromancy is thread necromancy.
I just noticed that paladins can no longer select Eldath (again). Was this intentional, or was it an oversight that might be fixed?
In case it was intentional: my
OP lays out the citations as to why Eldathyn paladins are canon lore. I even fixed the images and whatnot, just now. All for your consideration. :')
Arn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:03 am
Currently, Paladins cannot choose Eldath, but they should be able to, according to FR lore.
There has been at least one paladin of Eldath in canon FR lore. See Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3E, page 228 (last paragraph there):
That should be enough, but to respond to people who say Eldathyns are supposed to be peaceful and pacifist:
Yes, you are right. But Eldath still permits violence in self-defense or the defense of others, even for her clerics. See Faiths and Avatars, page 58:
Her monks can be "deadly" when defending themselves or others, as seen in Faiths and Avatars, page 59:
And, finally, Eldath's dogma explicitly permits violence in self-defense. See Faiths and Pantheons, page 93:
So I would say a paladin of Eldath can definitely resort to violence in self-defense. Not that they would have to, but they COULD.
This is actually perfectly in line with the Paladin ethos, which says a Paladin avoids killing whenever possible. See The Complete Paladin's Handbook, page 26:
[Edit by Arn on 3/3/2022: Image deleted as irrelevant, but referenced in a subsequent post below.]
EDIT: As Ravial informed me, The Complete Paladin's Handbook is not enforced by the DM team. Only the Paladin's Code found in the PHB 3.5 (+ deity's dogma) is enforced:
DM Dialectic wrote:There is a lot of unclear information in here as to what is enforced paladin code according to the DM Team.
To be clear, the only DM Team enforced paladin code on this server that you should rely upon is the below basic information, if you have clarification questions beyond this then please PM the DM Team with your questions.
The only aspect of paladin code (which is defined to many different degrees in different canon Forgotten Realms lore sources) that the DM Team enforces on this server is the basic paladin code from the Player's Handbook 3.5, 44:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents...
----
This PHB code (+ Dogma) is the paladin code that the DM Team enforces.
If you have clarification questions about any aspect of the basic paladin code enforced quoted above, please PM the DM Team with your questions. The DM Team has posted some clarification notes below as well for public viewing.
The DM Team also recommends reading the simple definitions of alignments in the first post of this linked thread in the Roleplaying Guides forums:
viewtopic.php?f=421&t=7349
The DM Team has some publicly posted information clarifying a bit more from the DM Team perspective on paladin code here in the Roleplaying Guides forums:
Subject: Paladin Questions
TL;DR: Eldathyns can be Paladins without violating Eldath's dogma. Please let Paladins choose Eldath as their patron deity. Pls.
Re: Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me out)
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:42 am
by Rhifox
Arn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:28 amI just noticed that paladins can no longer select Eldath (again). Was this intentional, or was it an oversight that might be fixed?
Function of cleric alignments for Eldath being CG, CN, and NG, since was trying to update the deities to their more canon-appropriate settings during the domain rework. But can re-open up paladin, sure.
