Lies and Mercy - Paladin Questions

[Side]

I'm still a little unsure of using the Roleplaying Guides subsection of Tips & Tricks, particularly when I'm asking questions instead of offering guidance, but if this fits better in there could someone please move it for me?

I'm also a little unsure of writing this topic. I've been reading a lot of the past discussions about paladins in the last few hours, and boy do they get heated fast. I'm going to try and be as concise as I can in my questions, so hopefully that will make answering them quick and painless. I doubt that will happen, particularly since I'm not always great at explaining my thoughts, but it's the thought that counts, right?

So my first question is this; what is a lie? It's pretty well accepted that paladins don't lie, but what all does that cover? Deception is a pretty broad term covering everything from forcing a smile when you're sad to forging legal documents. Where is the line drawn when it comes to paladins?

As an example I'm working on a character that is not human, but might want to hide that fact from others. Considering that they are a paladin, just how far is acceptable when hiding this, if it's even acceptable at all? I assume wearing clothing and armor that covers up obvious, non-human features, even though it is in a direct attempt to mislead people, is fine? With how strict paladin RP is I don't want to make a bad assumption when making my first paladin.

Secondly what should one do if their chosen deity doesn't really describe how a paladin should treat the wicked? Some deities might push for legal justice, while others might support destroying evil instead of bringing it in for judgement. There are deities that clearly support one of these over the other, but not all. If there isn't a lot of information about what a deity would prefer is it up to the paladin to take a personal stance?

In this specific case I'm looking into Mystra. What I've read on her hasn't really described much when it comes to paladins, even though she does have a paladin order that she supports. With my current lack of knowledge on the subject I can kind of see her supporting either side of this issue, and so I really don't know how to proceed.

[LISA100595]

We have had these same questions from our members time and time again. I invite you to read what we have on the Order of the Silver Rose's public section of our External Form regarding Paladins and Good and Evil.

http://sotl.freeforums.org/paladin-from ... r-t16.html

http://sotl.freeforums.org/good-vs-evil-in-dnd-t14.html

[Vesgar]

Thanks for these. The good vs evil part was a good read.

[Hidennka]

The bible.

Some will state it's outdated, and not all applies but... this was my go-to and a recommended resource. It touches on appropriate responses to interrogations, as well as some great passages on ethos. I definitely encourage reading the ones on humility and courtesy, as they're often.... overlooked.

From experience, deception is more often than not inclusive of spells (such as mirror image or invisibility), mechanics (such as sneak attack) and anything that presents the paladin in a dishonest way. To my knowledge actively knowing of a trait and try to hide is considered a deception. Half-truths, or partial withholding is a bit of a grey area as sources only seem to state black and white "tell it all or say nothing at all".

[DM Dagon]

I'm still a little unsure of using the Roleplaying Guides subsection of Tips & Tricks, particularly when I'm asking questions instead of offering guidance, but if this fits better in there could someone please move it for me?

I'm also a little unsure of writing this topic. I've been reading a lot of the past discussions about paladins in the last few hours, and boy do they get heated fast. I'm going to try and be as concise as I can in my questions, so hopefully that will make answering them quick and painless. I doubt that will happen, particularly since I'm not always great at explaining my thoughts, but it's the thought that counts, right?

So my first question is this; what is a lie? It's pretty well accepted that paladins don't lie, but what all does that cover? Deception is a pretty broad term covering everything from forcing a smile when you're sad to forging legal documents. Where is the line drawn when it comes to paladins?

As an example I'm working on a character that is not human, but might want to hide that fact from others. Considering that they are a paladin, just how far is acceptable when hiding this, if it's even acceptable at all? I assume wearing clothing and armor that covers up obvious, non-human features, even though it is in a direct attempt to mislead people, is fine? With how strict paladin RP is I don't want to make a bad assumption when making my first paladin.

Secondly what should one do if their chosen deity doesn't really describe how a paladin should treat the wicked? Some deities might push for legal justice, while others might support destroying evil instead of bringing it in for judgement. There are deities that clearly support one of these over the other, but not all. If there isn't a lot of information about what a deity would prefer is it up to the paladin to take a personal stance?

In this specific case I'm looking into Mystra. What I've read on her hasn't really described much when it comes to paladins, even though she does have a paladin order that she supports. With my current lack of knowledge on the subject I can kind of see her supporting either side of this issue, and so I really don't know how to proceed.

In case of any paladin, you need to take a lot of things in account.

First and foremost, they are LG, regardless of their deity. Paladins of non-LG deities may get in trouble becuse of it, but later on that. While in theory both count equally, the punishment for willingly comitting an evil act is much more severe then for comitting a chaotic act.

Then, they need to adhere to the dogma of their deity, but in a LG manner. This can be problematic, in case of a LN or CG deity, and may cause one of the "they did nothing wrong" falls, as there are paradox situations where the paladin can't win. This is not a design flaw, in my eyes. Afterall, most paladins either die or fall before they reach the age of thirty.

After those quite obvious ones, comes the personal code of the paladin, which may differ on personal basis. We do not enforce an universial code here.

Then the most general one, are the so called paladin ethics, which are usually at least in part, in any paladin's code, so they only count really if the paladin has some uncommon code.

About lies:

- Straight up lies, even if a white lie, I think are completely out of question, in other cases refer to the Complete book of paladins, others have linked.

About Mystrya or gods who are not typical paladin patrons:

Well, that is a complicated issue, as you have pointed out, the dogma says nothing about punishing evil. That makes the life of a paladin harder in some cases, but easier in others.
While there is not -one- preferred method of doing so, as long as they keep their LG aligment, code and ethics, the dogma may sometimes conflict with justice. And that is where the paladin might get into a hard situation, trying to find a way to keep both.

In my opinon, that is one of the most prominent features of the class. Being a paladin is hard, being a paladin of a non-LG or even more a non-good deity, can be quite hard. But also very rewarding.

Currently, by policy, we do not police anything but severe breaches of aligment or dogma, and only if they are repeated. We can say that we are quite lax on enforced rules, but I think it will make for a more enjoyable experience if paladins adhere to their codes and ethics etc., themselves.

Overall, I would again reccomend reading the Complete Book of Paladins, and the Book of Exalted Deeds (mostly about the LG aligment).

[Side]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm more than ready to have a paladin fall, I just want it to be by my character's actions and not my own.

Deception still doesn't sit quite right with me, just in where the line you can't cross is located. To quote the provided Complete Paladin's Handbook:

A paladin always tells the truth as he knows it. He may decline to speak or choose to withhold information, but he will never intentionally mislead anyone, including his enemies. He may ask permission not to answer a direct question, but if pressed, he'll tell the truth (however, he may frame his answers in such a way as to withhold vital information).

This part bothers me a little bit. You're not allowed to deceive anyone, but you're allowed to let people deceive themselves. While I wouldn't consider it outright deception, it doesn't strike me as the most honest thing you could do. I would probably take the route of specifically saying I cannot say the information, even though I know it, but the example given in the handbook involves a paladin simply not speaking and letting his captor assume.

I know the handbook is considered by some to be out of date, and so I probably shouldn't take it's examples word for word, but it is something I'm worrying about. If there's any wiggle room at all I want to make sure that I, as the player, don't accidentally cross that line.

The example of a "lie" I would normally consider acceptable from my first post is faking a smile when you're really not in the mood to smile. It's an intentional act designed to mislead others. It's dishonest, and yet to my modern mind it doesn't seem like the kind of action that would be dishonorable. Then again I'm not a god who requires near, if not actual perfection from a group of worshipers.

If the above quote is allowable and a paladin is allowed to act in such a way that people assume false things, would my example of someone that wants to hide what they are work? Would they be able to wear a full suit of full plate, closed helm included, all with the specific intent of hiding their true race, and have it be acceptable so long as they don't outright say they are something they are not?

There's a line here, and my goal is to build a character that's dangerously close to crossing it, but I don't want to accidentally cross it as the player. If there is to be a fall I want it to be because of my characters actions and not a mistake on my own part, if that makes sense.

I'll look into other gods though. This is my first paladin, and while I do want to dive right in I think the water around here might be a little too deep for a first time paladin player, so I'll look for a god that is a bit easier to follow.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I think it means you cannot deceive via your own actions. A fake smile is deceptive. If a man says "Hello death knight bob" to your paladin though you do not have to correct them. Your paladin might just say "hello james the necromancer. Is there a meeting of evil chuckleheads going on tonight?" However if the James replied "Yes are you excited?" The paladin shouldn't reply "yes" or mislead with a shrug or smile.

I made "Should not" bold for a reason. The paladin code is suppose to be subjective ICly. Yes that is right. Moral values are not shared and agreed upon in game any more than they are in real life. If your paladin feels they messed up go ask a cleric or priest to help. If your paladin royally screws up I think the deities are suppose to do something like remove his powers or something.

Also look up gray guards. They are basically paladins that can lie, cheat, and steal so long as it serves the greater good. If you have ever seen Batman: Under the Red Hood there is a scene where Batman refuses to kill Joker because that would make drag him down to the jokers level. That is standard paladin type behavior. Even though Joker killed hundreds of people Batman won't kill him unless it can immediately prevent another murder. A Gray Guard would kill the Joker if he is convinced the Joker is going to successfully murder anyone in the future. Why risk the greater good is their reasoning. Hell a Gray Guard would steal gold, beat up an old lady, kill his brother, and curse his own god if it helped him dismantle the zhents.

- DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT PLAY PALADINS AND THIS IS ALL FROM MY BOOKS AND VAGUE MEMORY.

[7threalm]

atlas as the source guide sure he will post it

he done alot of work on the pnp side, its int heir forums i think

A true paladin is really hard and to play a true one you should look it over.

they are not even suppose have that much in excess,

you can try and play on ambiguities all you want, but you might get called out on it.

They have a really long rule list to follow, and you have to ask for forgiveness or you lose your powers. I think it more stricter then clerics

Paladins - Follow the faith to T
Clerics - interpet the teachings and convey them to people in a less divine way
FVS - Could care less either way.

its kinda like this


The Code of Torm:

Be the champion of the weak and the defenseless.
Be stern, unyielding and unswerving in your battles with evil.
Obey your masters with alert judgment and anticipation.
Serve the common good and the rule law established by honorable rulers.
Seek prowess and skill in all endeavors.
Stand ever alert against corruption.
Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster.
Be ever mindful of the code, and use them in your actions to swiftly enact justice.


Precepts of the Code:

Be the champion of the weak and the defenseless. Your duty is to those who lack the power you wield. Care for the sick and aid the distressed. Be an example to the young. Protect your friends. Be generous in so far as your resources allow. There are two things that will blemish the faithful, and these are riches and pride. If one but remains in strained circumstances, he will not be marred.

Be stern, unyielding and unswerving in your battles with evil. Make war upon evil and injustice without cessation. Do not recoil before the enemy, but let your wrath undo the wicked. Seek not only courage, but also wisdom to see that stupidity and courage are cousins. Courage also means taking the side of truth in all matters, rather than seeking the expedient lie.

Obey your masters with alert judgment and anticipation. Trust in your master, for his duty to you is given by Torm, serve him as though your own body were already dead, and you will be one man in a thousand. There are many places where compromise is expected; loyalty is not amongst them. If your path is without mortal master, let Torm and his code guide your steps.

Serve the common good and the rule law established by honorable rulers. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good being of Faerun. Strive to maintain law and order. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws.

Seek prowess and skill in all endeavors. Throughout your life, advance daily, becoming more skillful than yesterday, more skillful than today so that your strength may be used in the service of the Triad, rather than in personal aggrandizement. This is never ending.

Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against the rot in the hearts of mortals. Avoid all excesses and seek to defeat hubris, gullibility and ignorance within yourself. Purpose and discipline clear the mind. Your breath should only bring truth, always be faithful to your word. Bring painful, quick death to traitors.

Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Stand firm in your beliefs, for this faith roots you and gives hope against despair. In the midst of a single breath, where only goodness is held, is the way of Torm. But there is no one who can understand this clarity at first. Purity is something that cannot be attained except by piling effort upon effort.

Be ever mindful of the code, and use them in your actions to swiftly enact justice. The church of Tyr and Ilmater are the mind and heart of the Triad, bringing judgment and compassion to men. The church of Torm is the mighty hand of the Triad, swiftly enacting their wisdom. Hold to the virtues and duties of the code, realizing that though the ideals cannot be reached, the quality of striving towards them ennobles the spirit. In confronting difficult matters, if at first you leave it alone, fix the code in your heart, exclude self-interest, and make an effort, you will not go far from your mark.

[7threalm]

also each diety has their own rules and subsets


list some paladin
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/C ... s_by_deity


paladin gods and sects
http://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/organ ... adin.shtml

paladin orders
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/C ... din_orders

a paladin without and order or organization isn't to much a paladin

[Glowfire]

I've asked the DM team to add the ruling made a little 2 years ago to their official rulings. I think even DM Dagon must have overlooked it because you really have to search for its mentions.

Subject: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.
Subject: Paladin Questions

Your questions are interesting, Side. Here's my take on them.

So my first question is this; what is a lie?

Politeness is not lying! https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polite
Giving someone a false/forced smile is more often than not politeness.

If your paladin wears clothing or armor to hide certain attributes, I see that no worse than using make-up to hide a blemish or long sleeves to hide a hideous scar on an arm. Your character is not responsible for the assumptions other people make. Should someone ask directly, your character can't lie. He/she can divert conversation to something else (bean dip).

Secondly what should one do if their chosen deity doesn't really describe how a paladin should treat the wicked?

I struggled a little with this myself as Sune's dogma probably makes most readers do an eyeroll. I have my paladin bring in someone for legal justice if the crime committed has been on lands where legal justice is served but deals with matters on the spot elsewhere. The Heartlands are notorious for being an area which brings thoughts to the Wild West outside the various city states. The law is measured by strength. You can't bring in characters from wilderness to the city to be punished. There was a ruling on that but I can't find it now. Serve justice in the wilderness, if it happens in the wilderness.

Taking a personal stance in important. Forgiving or unforgiving? Will your character err on the side of caution or take no risks in letting evil roam?

I'd suggest that you take the PHB 3.5 paladin code and break it down along with the dogma into a personal paladin code. I'd be willing to discuss Mystra's dogma and how it can be woven in with a paladin code more at depth if you'd like over PMs. I second DM Dagon when it comes to reading Paladin's Handbook and Exhalted Deeds because they're very nice inspiration sources. Especially read up on "what is good" (OSR have excerpts in the link posted earlier). That will aid you in knowing on what things you can't err on - they're not always so straightforward. Treating all life with respect is often a key attribute of goodness, which also includes the wicked. IE captives shouldn't be treated poorly.

Also one mistake I've seen that bugs me is generally goodly characters that haven't even met each other just identify each other like dogs sniffing each others butts, by looking at their golden armors or whatever, and then treat each other as part of this special club of immaculate individuals unable to walk the side of error.

While I laughed at your choice of words I don't feel like I'm in the wrong for roleplaying acceptance among people my character wouldn't have any reason to suspect that they aren't who they say they are.

[Glowfire]

Double posting but forgot this! There is an paladin book in lore which teaches paladins about virtues etc.


Paladin's Virtues from "Quentin's Monograph":

• An organized approach brings the most good for all.
• Laws exist to bring prosperity to those under them.
• Unjust laws must be overturned or changed in a reasonable and positive fashion.
• People rule; laws help.
• Cause the most good through the least harm.
• Protect the weak.
• Goodness is not a natural state, but must be fought for to be attained and maintained.
• Lead by example.
• Let your deeds speak your intentions.
• Goodness radiates from the heart.
• Give others your mercy, but keep your wits about you.

FR Campaign Setting AD&D

Edited to add what else it says for those who are interested:

Paladins

Paladins are fighters of a higher calling than most common warriors. They fight for a strongly held moral and ethical code, and are held to exacting standards in all their actions. Failure to live up to their moral and ethical alignment results in their downfall, and the stripping of all special abilities granted by the paladin class.

There is no specific paladin's code, no set of do's and don'ts by which paladins are graded on a pass/fail basis. The closest thing to such a code is "Quentin's Monograph", a short treatise on the nature of alignment and paladinhood by a retired paladin. In addition to flowery descriptions of early endeavors and practical advice on the care of weapons and animals, the monograph summarizes what it calls the Paladin's Virtues.

The listing is not all-inclusive, and every paladin grades and emphasizes these virtues based on his or her own personal ethos and religious background. Paladins may obey all these virtues to the letter and still lose their special status, or flout one virtue in the name of another and still retain paladinhood. In this fashion, a paladin may exist outside an organized hierarchy or even lead rebellions and wars against unjust or evil causes. It is possible under these virtues that one paladin may even fight another, both seeking to defend a different paladin's virtue or interpretation of all of them.

Paladins in the Realms, like priests, are devoted to a particular deity. The most common paladin deities are those which embody action, decision, watchfulness, and wisdom. Torm and Tyr are both popular deities for paladins, as is Ilmater, who stresses the need to suffer to attain one's goals. All these gods are good and lawful in their basic alignment.

Paladins also serve deities who present themselves as being good but not necessarily lawful, and lawful but not necessarily good. These include Azuth and Helm, who are lawful and neutral in their outlook, and Mystra, Deneir, Lathander, and Milil, who are good and neutral. Chauntea and Mielikki are also neutral and good, but tend to attract more druids and rangers than paladins, though there are exceptions. No gods who claim true neutrality, evil, or chaos in their ethos and morals have paladins operating in their name.

[kleomenes]

No one has ever played with strict tithing rules or embracing humility in magical goods and adventuring income.

Sure, perhaps no one has 100% followed Complete Paladin's handbook on this, but some have honoured the spirit.

Ameris has had tithes from a number of paladins before to put in the temple funds. He's also had to arm twist a couple of paladins to accept weaponry and armour to outfit themselves from what he'd gathered on behalf of the temple.

I respect that kind of voluntary stuff.

[Side]

Hope that doesn't go off topic too much, OP, it's curious how every paladin RP discussion turns into a generic paladin discussion.

Paladins are simply too interesting of a topic for a discussion to stay on topic for too long.

I think my questions are pretty well answered by now, so if you guys want to talk about more generic paladin issues be my guest! Anything constructive will help me and others in the end.

Thank you everyone for your help and advice, I've got a lot to think about in terms of how to design who my character is but I think I'm pretty well prepared to give it a try.

[DM Dialectic]

There is a lot of unclear information in here as to what is enforced paladin code according to the DM Team.

To be clear, the only DM Team enforced paladin code on this server that you should rely upon is the below basic information, if you have clarification questions beyond this then please PM the DM Team with your questions.

The only aspect of paladin code (which is defined to many different degrees in different canon Forgotten Realms lore sources) that the DM Team enforces on this server is the basic paladin code from the Player's Handbook 3.5, 44:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents...

----

This PHB code (+ Dogma) is the paladin code that the DM Team enforces.

If you have clarification questions about any aspect of the basic paladin code enforced quoted above, please PM the DM Team with your questions. The DM Team has posted some clarification notes below as well for public viewing.

The DM Team also recommends reading the simple definitions of alignments in the first post of this linked thread in the Roleplaying Guides forums:

viewtopic.php?f=421&t=7349

The DM Team has some publicly posted information clarifying a bit more from the DM Team perspective on paladin code here in the Roleplaying Guides forums:

Subject: Paladin Questions

[Side]

I'm pretty clear on most of that, as I know my paladin won't be allowed to lie without repercussions. The only thing I was unsure about was what exactly counts as a lie. Deception covers a whole lot of actions after all.

I might be sending in an official request soon, but for the moment I think I just need some time to think it out for myself and make sure I understand the question I'm asking.