Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

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NegInfinity
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by NegInfinity »

I'd like to add a bit from mechanical standpoint:
Hawke wrote: And the Powers a Paladin gets? Come on...

Lay on Hands- Decent uninterruptible heal.
Divine Grace- Super bonus to all saves with charisma bonus
Aura of Courage- Fear immunity for self and bonus to saves for fear with party
Divine Health- No more disease
Turn Undead- Insta gib undead
Smite Evil- We all know this is very nice
Remove Disease- Not only are you immune, but you can cure it in others
Damage potential:
Turn Undead -> Epic Divine Might.
Smite Evil -> Great Smiting.

So.....just with paladin/blackguard dip you get opportunity to reach ridiculous damage if you couple it with something like weapon master. How about killing a dragon with 1 smite? That is reachable, although it requires specific build and luck.

So, yeah, it is a reward. You need to be smart to utilize it properly, of course...
Cel'Daren
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Cel'Daren »

Now I feel like you're being antagonistic just to be antagonistic. We've devolved into a discussion on whether a Paladins powers are a reward or a tool. Its reached the "this is pointless semantics" stage.

I'm just gonna wait for the DMs to make their ruling, and either go on playing my Paladin how I like, or piking off to do something else. It's obvious at this point that we just completely disagree on Paladins, their Code of Conduct, and the restrictions placed upon them. I vote for more freedom and allowance for personal interpretation, you vote for old school restrictions. Might as well just leave it to the DMs. I sincerely hope they follow with DM Ioulaum's post and agree with it. I like the thought of being able to play a non-traditional character type, and challenging people's perception of something that seems set in stone. A lying, poison-using Paladin I think would make for some great RP potential, if only because of the shock people would have if they witnessed his use of poison after claiming to be a Paladin.

Anyway, until the DMs give a ruling I've nothing to add to this discussion. Carry on~
NegInfinity
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by NegInfinity »

Cel'Daren wrote:Now I feel like you're being antagonistic just to be antagonistic.
Not sure where you got that idea from.
Cel'Daren wrote: We've devolved into a discussion on whether a Paladins powers are a reward or a tool. Its reached the "this is pointless semantics" stage.
I do not think it is pointless. It is, IMO, important detail, that also somewhat applies to clerics. For your devotion and dedicaion and adherence to dogma, you're granted powers of your god. Yeah, I'd say it is a reward, and not a tool, since it is available to you at all time. Were it a tool, deity would restrict its use to tasks deity think is appropriate.
Cel'Daren wrote: A lying, poison-using Paladin I think would make for some great RP potential, if only because of the shock people would have if they witnessed his use of poison after claiming to be a Paladin.
As I said before, roleplay whatever you want, but don't get upset when you fall.
7threalm
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by 7threalm »

Cel'Daren wrote: A lying, poison-using Paladin I think would make for some great RP potential, if only because of the shock people would have if they witnessed his use of poison after claiming to be a Paladin.
no it won't, but good luck with your concept, been done before, just don't be mad when people don't take your character seriously, or be able join any of the LG guilds around. Good luck with the RCR.
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Thorsson
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Thorsson »

Give up guys. Time will show the wiser.
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Hawke
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Hawke »

Cel'Daren wrote:Now I feel like you're being antagonistic just to be antagonistic. We've devolved into a discussion on whether a Paladins powers are a reward or a tool. Its reached the "this is pointless semantics" stage.

Sorry you feel that way. I was just calling a duck, a duck. For paladins, the powers ARE very important, as they are the only class that can lose their powers completely from their actions.

Clerics can be denied power if they fall out of favor with their god, but can hook up with another god.

Paladins are wholly dependant on being Dudley DoRight not because it is what is required of them (well yes) But also the fact they WILL lose all their powers, and may never be able to atone for their loss.

Since we do bring PnP in BGTSCC this IS important and not being antagonistic as you put it.

Yes, you can wait for the DMs, but I am fairly confident that the "Code" of the paladin will remain that you have to be that beacon in the darkness and die first. Why? Because Paladin is one of the few classes that haven't changed RPwise since the 1970s.

Now with what you want to do? Blackguard easily fits the bill. You don't have to harm babies and be Lawful Evil. All Lawful Evil means that you will do whatever it takes so that you will survive in the end, and that you live by a code of some sort. There are tons of real life and fictional "bad guys" who can fit the bill for this.

For example, the murderer who will kill for any reason, who will not kill an unarmed man. "You have a wife and kid? I'll take care of them after I kill you, now pick up your weapon." Then he forces the wife and kid to be his family members due to his obligation. Granted he is still evil.


*shrugs*
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Archaos
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Archaos »

Here's an analogy.

"I want to play a Druid that wears mithral full plate armor and has a metal tower shield and teaches the druidic language to friends.
What do you mean I cannot do that? I still RP that I love nature.
That's my interpretation and type of character I want to play.
I vote for more freedom on this matter. Why should we follow the Core roleplaying restrictions of a class?"

If you want to play an RP-heavy class, then follow the damn RP restrictions or don't play it.
Stop trying to justify ignoring their RP while you get all the benefits and name.

If such restrictions are not RPed or removed, it only cheapens the class and just make it a bag of mechanics.

Let's just rename the Paladin to Templar then and Druid to Shifter. No RP restrictions, full benefits.
Neutral Evil Paladins and Druids in full metal armor.
And maybe Clerics to Divine Wizards.
mireigi
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by mireigi »

One thing to note, is that the OP originally asked for thoughts on the tenets of the Red Knight in relation to the Paladin Code.

If we resume to that original issue, then the answer becomes rather simple:
A Paladin cannot use Poison to change the outcome of combat, neither during nor before said combat happens. A Paladin, however, can use Poisons to aid in other aspects of his duties, as long as those Poisons are not designed to nor used with the intent of harming others or providing unfair advantages. This restricts Poison use to medicinal and humanitarian uses only, such as, but not limited to, using Sleeping Poison to knock out an injured comrade allowing for faster and safer transport to a healer.

However, most Paladin's would never use Poisons at all, not even for such measures, instead chosing to rely on other means to produce the same effect, as not to have their actions and intent misjudged by outside sources that are not privy to the full knowledge of the situation.

That being said, Poison can sometimes have strategic advantages, which would put some of them in line with the tenets of the Red Knight, whom embodies strategy as a core tenet. As such, a Paladin of the Red Knight might be less reserved than other Paladins when it comes to use of Poisons for situations such as the above, provided the usage serves a part in some strategy and is not with the intent of altering the outcome of combat.
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CptAmyrica
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by CptAmyrica »

This restricts Poison use to medicinal and humanitarian uses only, such as, but not limited to, using Sleeping Poison to knock out an injured comrade allowing for faster and safer transport to a healer.
I don't buy this (obviously). Why would a paladin, which is possessed of divine healing abilities, spend his gold on a sleeping poison instead of an actual curative?
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Endelyon
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Endelyon »

CptAmyrica wrote: In the case of paladins of the Red Knight, she is a deity of battle tactics and strategy, not cloak-and-dagger machinations. Her purview is properly preparing the battlefield, intelligent application of forces, anticipating enemy movements, and so forth, not lacing the enemy's bread with poisons so that they die foaming, convulsing deaths the night before the battle. She would look favorably upon a paladin who had kept a force of cavalry hidden and ready to counter an enemy's charge versus the commander who fouled the wells.
This is the only person I see who has really cut to the heart of the issue here. The part of this discussion that has been focused on is whether use of poison is appropriate for a Paladin or not, but the part of it that has been been touched on is whether or not the Red Knight would allow their Paladins specific allowances beyond those of other paladins because "that action is the best available tactic," and the answer is probably not. The Red Knight is about grand strategy, and a Paladin of the Red Knight would likely see the use of poison, while strategically viable and perhaps optimal, as a strategy that they did not have available to themselves.

If you look at things from the perspective of lanceboard, the Lady will look most favorably upon the follower that can come up with an effective strategy to win the game using the pieces and moves that they had available to them. A skilled player might be able to beat an unskilled player even with only half her pieces available to her at the start of the game.

I know the initial thought is, "Why would I be starting with half my pieces? That's not fair." Well, the lanceboard analogy can only be taken so far. Real battles are not fair. Tacticians more often than not do start from an unequal playing field with a different number of pieces. A paladin of the Red Knight's best option would be to simply assess the battlefield carefully, and come up with a strategy to beat her opponent using the options she had available to her.

There is a nice book I wrote in the IG library system that explains some concepts of the RK. It is under the religion tab, and is called "Elegance of Strategy." You should give it a read!
mireigi wrote:That being said, Poison can sometimes have strategic advantages, which would put some of them in line with the tenets of the Red Knight, whom embodies strategy as a core tenet. As such, a Paladin of the Red Knight might be less reserved than other Paladins when it comes to use of Poisons for situations such as the above, provided the usage serves a part in some strategy and is not with the intent of altering the outcome of combat.
This is not exactly the right way to look at it. "If something has a strategic advantage, that is within the tenants" is incorrect, as if this were the case a Paladin of the Red Knight could lie, cheat, torture, steal, poison, assassinate, and even purchase or employ slaves in combat. The most strategic answer is usually a pretty underhanded one. A follower that embodies the Red Knight will not have to employ what is "the best strategy," but will instead gain favor using what she has available to her.




All that being said, role play your character how you want, in the end! You will never see my character giving a Paladin of the RK flak in game if you decide that he's allowed to use poison (as she has no idea about a paladin's oaths or tenets)! I hope you enjoy playing your RK character, the server could use more of them. Just keep having fun and logging in!
Last edited by Endelyon on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Charraj
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Charraj »

Endelyon wrote:
CptAmyrica wrote: In the case of paladins of the Red Knight, she is a deity of battle tactics and strategy, not cloak-and-dagger machinations. Her purview is properly preparing the battlefield, intelligent application of forces, anticipating enemy movements, and so forth, not lacing the enemy's bread with poisons so that they die foaming, convulsing deaths the night before the battle. She would look favorably upon a paladin who had kept a force of cavalry hidden and ready to counter an enemy's charge versus the commander who fouled the wells.
This is the only person I see who has really cut to the heart of the issue here. The part of this discussion that has been focused on is whether use of poison is appropriate for a Paladin or not, but the part of it that has been been touched on is whether or not the Red Knight would allow their Paladins specific allowances beyond those of other paladins because "that action is the best available tactic," and the answer is probably not. The Red Knight is about grand strategy, and a Paladin of the Red Knight would likely see the use of poison, while strategically viable and perhaps , as a strategy that they did not have available to themselves.

If you look at things from the perspective of lanceboard, the Lady will look most favorably upon the follower that can come up with an effective strategy to win the game using the pieces and moves that they had available to them. A skilled player might be able to beat an unskilled player even with only half her pieces available to her at the start of the game.

I know the initial thought is, "Why would I be starting with half my pieces? That's not fair." Well, the lanceboard analogy can only be taken so far. Real battles are not fair. Tacticians more often than not do start from an unequal playing field with a different number of pieces. A paladin of the Red Knight's best option would be to simply assess the battlefield carefully, and come up with a strategy to beat her opponent using the options she had available to her.

There is a nice book in the IG library system that explains some concepts of the RK. It is under the religion tab. You should give it a read!
Seconded (thirded?)!

I don't think the Red Knight would encourage her followers to poison their foes to win a battle, anymore than she would encourage a chess player to slip his opponent a laxative to win a game!
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Aelcar
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Aelcar »

Correct. To use a chess analogy, since we are discussing the Red Knight, she'd approve of a deep, long-term strategy based on hidden tactical resources rather than one of the players stabbing the other in the chest and hoping he dies so he loses on time.

Paladins play by the rules. Associating that with dumb and predictable is a lack of imagination and a good degree of superficiality in the evaluation.
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Cel'Daren
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Re: Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

Unread post by Cel'Daren »

Update! The DMs have made their decision. Quoted from a PM sent to me...

DM Golem wrote:Hello

The DM team has been discussing the paladin code and we remain of the view that the PHB code (+ Dogma) will be the one we enforce going forward, in line with previous advice delivered to you via PM.

Kind regards

DM Golem
Well then. That's that I guess. No way I can hope to change anybody's mind it seems. Despite the fact that I disagree with the ruling, and that I hate that ruling personally, it's been ruled so. Enjoy your view of Paladins, I guess. Still debating on whether to just leave or reroll another character, since my current character just got retconned out of existence. He can't exist as anything other than a Paladin and still be the character I wanted to play, so he's poofed now. Anybody who's RPed with him can just ignore the RP wholesale.

So anyway, that's done with. Please don't post just to say "I told you they'd do this". It's rather rude.
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