Thread in question (to catch up on the discussion)
So, @NegInfinity
I disagree with your judgement that "lying and decieving is awfully close to an evil deed."
If I lie in order to save someone's life, such as telling an Evil Law-enforcer that said person is not present when he is, how is that evil? It might be chaotic because I'm deceiving a member of Law enforcement, but it isn't evil. Or here's a Lawful Good lie specific to a Paladin. If a member of the clergy of Tyr tells a Paladin of Tyr that Person X cannot learn about Person Z because it would endanger thousands of lives, would it not be both Lawful (by obeying the Clergyman) and Good (by preventing the endangerment of innocents) to lie to Person X about Person Z?
Again, I say that deception in and of itself is not tied to any alignment, and is instead simply a tool to further your own goals and plans, whether or not they are righteous.
Only if you go about it in a foolish or ignorant manner. You need not find other evil people who are enemies of your enemy to seek as an ally. Look amongst Good or Neutral beings instead. Also, there are plenty of examples where a Paladin has had to temporarily align themselves with an evil being in order to take down a greater threat. They do tend to seek out an atonement after the fact, of course, but plenty of them didn't fall during this strategy.That is very likely to lead you to dark side.Cel'Daren wrote:4. Seek out your enemy's enemies as allies, and be prepared to compromise.
5, 6, and 10 are from the Red Knight's and Tempus' wiki page describing their Dogma and their view of those who change sides often. 8 is your stock Paladin tenant drawn from Medieval Chivalry. In fact...Those closely resemble dogmas of many other deities.Cel'Daren wrote:5. Oppose those who bring needless strife and pain; especially the followers of Garagos and Cyric.
6. Show no mercy to the corrupt; and do not hesitate to let your sword strike; indecision and inaction wreaks more destruction than the most energetic raider or horde leader.
8. Protect the weak and help those who cannot help themselves.
10. Do not betray your loyalties capriciously; Follow your duties seriously unless they break the Code of Conduct.
Illmater, Lathander, Helm, Tyr, Torm, Hoar. You should probably take a look at them.
Tenant 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 of the above Code of Conduct are all drawn from either the Red Knight or Tempus' wiki pages, coming from their Dogma and Tempus' unwillingness to harm the followers of Eldath (as the Red Knight is an Exarch of Tempus, it seems appropriate for her followers to do likewise). Tenant 8 is literally there because Paladin.1. War is won by those with the best planning, strategy, and tactics; always endeavor to have a plan and be prepared to change them to adapt to new circumstances.
2. Losing a battle does not necessarily indicate the war is lost; if you must retreat so be it, but do not lose heart and prepare yourself for the next battle.
3. Seek out your opponent's weaknesses and recognize your own; avoid an opponent's strengths and play to your own.
4. Seek out your enemy's enemies as allies, and be prepared to compromise.
5. Oppose those who bring needless strife and pain; especially the followers of Garagos and Cyric.
6. Show no mercy to the corrupt; and do not hesitate to let your sword strike; indecision and inaction wreaks more destruction than the most energetic raider or horde leader.
7. In times of war prepare for peace and in times of peace prepare for war; think not only of the immediate battle but of what follows after.
8. Protect the weak and help those who cannot help themselves.
9. Do no harm against the followers of Eldath; for War is meaningless without the peace that follows.
10. Do not betray your loyalties capriciously; Follow your duties seriously unless they break the Code of Conduct.
For the rest of your questions I have one in response. Is a Lawful Good Rogue not allowed to Feint or use their Sneak Attacks? Is it not possible that they are using these tools to further Law and Goodness? Can not a Sneak Attack be fluffed as something besides a dastardly stab when your enemy isn't looking? Couldn't it instead be a very precise strike like a punch to the diaphram that requires enough time to properly aim the strike to be effective, and can only be used when an opponent isn't able to effectively dodge even partially out of the way?
Why is a Feint considered so dishonorable? It happens in combat. Period. You pull your sword overhead for an apparent hard swing, then at the last moment you turn it into a downward stab that goes right past your opponent's guard and puts a hole in his torso. You lean right as if to circle your opponent, then throw a left jab when your opponent follows your initial movement. Those are feints. There's nothing wrong with them; it's just... combat.
I believe people are too harsh on Paladins. They should be able to do anything a Lawful Good character would be able to do in order to combat evil and save lives (Keep in mind that a Lawful character who had taken a Paladin's Code of Conduct would continue to follow it, because Lawful). As long as a Paladin follows the tenants of his Code of Conduct, and remains within the confines of the Lawful Good alignment, I believe they should be free to act however they want..
Also, remember folks. If there's a country with legal prostitution; a Paladin has no direct tenants against hiring a dozen men/women a night and partying him/herself into a stupor for a week straight.
