Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Thayan Knight class is not poor mechanically. It can be included in a Fighter build, Barbarian build or Man at Arms build quite well. When Calodan and I played, he had a Man@Arms with Thayan Knight while mine was Fighter/WoD/TK/BG. His build was definitely the better tank, while mine could spike damage quite well and when geared properly did fine solo in most area's. The fourth level bonus feat in particular can be utilized for an epic feat which is always a welcome addition. In my build getting 3 bonus epic feats (WoD 9/10 as well as TK4) was quite beneficial to the overall build since I was able to get all of the Fighter feats (Epic focus, specialization, melee mastery while also being able to hit 22 STR/CHA and Epic Divine Might).

Red Wizard similarly is a solid mechanical PRC. When combined with things like Archmagus, Shadow Adept or Blood Magus (RP issues asside) it can be used to get the highest DC caster for example. While I do agree that the difficulties associated in RP related to Red Wizard where it often seems like every single time you log on all you can do is deal with constant PvP issues or otherwise have difficulty just going out adventuring etc. I don't necessarily thing that any improvements mechanically would somehow alleviate that situation.

Red wizard never seemed subpar to me from a mechanical point of view. Obviously not top tier, but not terrible too.

Thayan Knight, on the other hand, is the worst class on the server gamedesign wise, from how weak it is to the absolutely lazy design where the class just shoves Halfling racial feats into your sheet which you're supposed to imagine are Terrifying champion, Zulkir's favor and the rest cool-sounding feats you don't get. I brought it up staff side and even wrote a plan how to make this class better, but unfortunately there's just no avaliable and interested enough devs at this moment to make it happen as such rework is very time-consuming.

Infernal Dave wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:39 am

JCVD1 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:24 pm It used to be fine.

That's where you lost me lol. RW was never fine, we've been having this exact conversation internally (and occasionally in public view) since I started on the server 10 frickin years ago.

Well! It used to be FINE-ish, rather. ahahah

I was refering they didn't code and made it mandatory to take the first RW level so we could partially bypass the restricted school by taking the essential spells by lvl 17.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:03 pm Red wizard never seemed subpar to me from a mechanical point of view. Obviously not top tier, but not terrible too.

Agree. I have one and i think they are fine.

A PRC should not be so good that it makes you OP compared to the vanilla class IMO.

A pure 20th or 30th or whatever wizard should not be much worse than a wizard with one or more PRCs IMO

PRCs should not be just about making maximised power builds with substantial mechanical advantages

There does seem to at least be an issue with Circle Magic, as was written in the OP. THAT is something definitive to the Red Wizard cabal aspect, and should really, really work...as a bonus to the RP of actually having a handful of Specialized RWs that could through the Group, make something special happen.

If that wouldn't be reason enough for a bunch of Red Wizards to get together, I don't know what will.

Thayan Knight is absolute garbage mechanically and its only value is RP, but do you need to shoot yourself in the foot to roleplay?

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:43 pm There does seem to at least be an issue with Circle Magic, as was written in the OP. THAT is something definitive to the Red Wizard cabal aspect, and should really, really work...as a bonus to the RP of actually having a handful of Specialized RWs that could through the Group, make something special happen.

If that wouldn't be reason enough for a bunch of Red Wizards to get together, I don't know what will.

+1 Circle Magic costs feats as I understand so a mechanical pay off that's actually worthwhile is quite important.

Problem is what should come first. Players to make the invested time worth it, or invested time for the Prc improvements to lure players. Hard to say as I dont know enough of the player base to gauge their interest in Thayans and evil generally.

Well I am certainly interested. A̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶I̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶,̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶i̶r̶c̶l̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶R̶e̶d̶ ̶W̶i̶z̶a̶r̶d̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶c̶i̶a̶l̶t̶y̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶R̶e̶d̶ ̶W̶i̶z̶a̶r̶d̶s̶.̶ I have not seen other Red Wizards outside of the Enclave (and even then only one by request).

(EDIT: I am seeing conflicting lore about this so if someone wants to set me straight go for it)

Also i dont think EVERY PRC have to be powerful... as long as its not worse than the vanilla class... some can be for flavour

Max Hatchet wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:09 pm Also i dont think EVERY PRC have to be powerful... as long as its not worse than the vanilla class... some can be for flavour

Flavour is great but given how everything in games always seems geared towards optimisation.. the argument rarely holds up in my view.

People don't want to feel cheated or cheated in a trade-off. I'm not familiar enough with the Orc to know it's nuances and it still seems powerful on its own. But if circles magic doesn't work as some claim that should be fixed.

Druchii wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:26 pm

Max Hatchet wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:09 pm Also i dont think EVERY PRC have to be powerful... as long as its not worse than the vanilla class... some can be for flavour

Flavour is great but given how everything in games always seems geared towards optimisation.. the argument rarely holds up in my view.

People don't want to feel cheated or cheated in a trade-off. I'm not familiar enough with the Orc to know it's nuances and it still seems powerful on its own. But if circles magic doesn't work as some claim that should be fixed.

I don't think that's true. If a player cares most about RP then it really doesn't matter what build you go. Optimization is only really important when planning on soloing and looting & PVP.

On a side note, can we have a feat/ability that get stronger by Intimidate skill? Would be extra flavor for Thayian Knight.

Max Hatchet wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:09 pm Also i dont think EVERY PRC have to be powerful... as long as its not worse than the vanilla class... some can be for flavour

Alright! Flavour up Icemage, weapon master, duelist and all its combo, and make y favorite classes powerful deal?