Red Wizard class changes requested.

[JCVD1]

I would request changes to Red Wizard class. Mostly mechanical.

First, whoever played and RPed as a Red Wizard know the strain of people always hating you, and sometimes spending hours without significant RP all due to the nation and the class background. It's been allowed to make a lot of Slaves escaped from Thay while making unaccurate lore statement about the slavery and the nation.

Thay does not keep Elvish slaves as they are too chaotic of nature and constitution weak for harsh work in mines.
They also do not experiment on any plane touched people (Aasimars, Tieflings and all genasis) because in Thay, They judge them by their human side.
It's been allowed to be going on for years and making RW even harder to play.

I would like to propose to either remove the extra forbidden school or just follow the FR lore about "when to take the levels". When I created my Red Wizard, the DM team removed the "Take first level at lvl 6" rule to ease the burden of being a Red Wizard. Taking the level at 17 makes it viable. It is possible to get most spell from your new school,but after your first level you lose access to learning new spells, keeping those already known. All I'm showing and explaining here, it is Lore accurate. (paraphrasing, will edit when i find the lore part from the book) 'Many wizards takes on the REd Wizard path late in their career, in order to keep access to certain spells."

Also, the very, very...VERY useless Circle magic. I tested it, back when there was more than 2 red Wizards around. I was lvl 30, and the one assisting me was level... 14 or 15. Circle magic is suposed to empower the circle leader and make his magic stronger. The way the math was done on the ability actualy made it weaken my lvl 30 Spell caster. In order to make it work fine, i was told "Be 4-5 and all powerful or it will weaken the circle leader." which is unrealistic and inaccurate representation of the ability from PnP.

Uncapping certain spells would also help! (but I'm dreaming I know ) Like remove the max Die from Delayed blast fireball, the cap of Disintegrate...

[Druchii]

I shall be watching this with great interest, mostly where the circle magic is concerned.

I am still toying with the idea of submitting a bio to get Red Wizard levels delayed because of the nerfs.

Really you'd make better RWs by not taking the class - though admittedly I am a poor builder and so perhaps not the best to judge. Just seems like a tonne of penalties personally.

I would however disagree on the RP side of things - Elves are considered trophy slaves if young and they are relegated mostly to non-physical roles as servants, entertainers etc - they can also be sold to the many temples who seek to free them. They are admittedly not kept for their physical prowess and they are very low in number. Older Elves commonly have magical abilities which makes them a dangerous slave to keep.

In short, my understanding of Thayan lore is they keep slaves from almost every race.

I also do not know why the stance on genasi/tieflings other sub-humans; Mulani don't care if you are human so much as caring about your Mulani heritage. Being a half-breed makes you lesser period.

Also, the lore side prolly deserves it's own thread since this is about mechanics, or should be.

[chad878262]

I may very well be wrong here, since Wiki still says you have to take Red Wizard at 6. However, I seem to recall when the decision was discussed to no longer require DM approval on any classes that the DMs had indicated it would be difficult to monitor such things as when a character takes their fist level in a PRC such as Red Wizard. So are you certain that Red Wizards have to become Red Wizards at level 6 today? Might be a good thing to ask HDM's or Admins to comment on that, since as I said I'm going from memory and this was like 2 years ago or something....

[cosmic ray]

The hefty RW penalties make sense in PnP because their main ability is Circle Magic, which is very OP.

In NwN2, Bugsidian didn't implement the main RW ability, but kept the harsh penalties unchanged, which is very unfair, making for a rubbish class if you are forced to take it as early as you can qualify for it (meaning no trickery to avoid the second prohibited school).

[JCVD1]

That's the thing. It's no Trickery. It's lore accurate.

The Dm made the class available to all, no bio required anymore.

[JCVD1]

I may very well be wrong here, since Wiki still says you have to take Red Wizard at 6. However, I seem to recall when the decision was discussed to no longer require DM approval on any classes that the DMs had indicated it would be difficult to monitor such things as when a character takes their fist level in a PRC such as Red Wizard. So are you certain that Red Wizards have to become Red Wizards at level 6 today? Might be a good thing to ask HDM's or Admins to comment on that, since as I said I'm going from memory and this was like 2 years ago or something....

Yes, I am certain. You can't take the class after lvl 6. They made sure that was scripted and that there was no way around it.

[chad878262]

A simple solution (maybe) would be to do something like what was done with Shadow Adept. Instead of having a 2nd prohibited school, make them pick a school that they are less skilled at. Could do anything from reducing the CL of spells from that school to reducing the DC's or whatever. Got to be careful though that it still gives some penalty... Otherwise everyone can just pick 'divination' knowing full well they don't care what the DC is on those spells.

I would recommend something like Caster level of their specialized school/ 2. So a Red Wizard with CL35 in their chosen specialty would have CL 17 in their weaker school. No longer prohibited, but easier to dispel, shorter duration and way lower DC's. Of course this is still giving them a weakness, but they are no longer barred from learning or casting from that school.

[cosmic ray]

There are divination spells with DCs which are mostly used for roleplay, but it is true that it is an overall weak school.

However, the idea of making the penalty less harsh is good. Either that, or adding proper circle magic.

[Steve]

...or just follow the FR lore about "when to take the levels". When I created my Red Wizard, the DM team removed the "Take first level at lvl 6" rule to ease the burden of being a Red Wizard. Taking the level at 17 makes it viable.

The Dungeon Masters Guide vol. II 3.5 edition DOES NOT STATE when Red Wizard needs to take a first RW level, though in the text it does say "Early in their careers..."

But then gain, a Red Wizard needs to take a special Feat, "Tattoo Focus" in order to use Circle Magic.

[Druchii]

Personally would've thrown Enchantment before Divination but thats just me tbh.

And I havent seen anywhere on forums about the rule being specifically thrown, only that the Class no longer requires application.

Feels likda dirty just 'winging' it though - I'd rather the DMs just confirm its ok to not follow the level 6 rule.

[DM Theophanies]

I don't think there are any mechanical restrictions on when you can take the class. From what I remember, the spell system was revamped so that when you try to cast from an opposing school, it fizzles. So it doesn't really matter when you take it. Maybe a dev can comment on this?

[gedweyignasia]

I don't think there are any mechanical restrictions on when you can take the class. From what I remember, the spell system was revamped so that when you try to cast from an opposing school, it fizzles. So it doesn't really matter when you take it. Maybe a dev can comment on this?

There was previously a poorly-implemented "hack" to remove spell school restrictions (in totality) in certain cases, which was not documented and did not seem to be a publicly known feature. I patched it out after some discussion with the rest of the team.

[Nemni]

Hacks aside, what Theophanies says is correct. If the spell level of the spell from the second forbidden school is over 3, it should always fail as the system is written now.

[JCVD1]

It does not matter nor it is the matter I am discussing about.

The change I'm asking is either allow RWs, like in the lore and the rule book, to keep the spells they previously learned from the restricted school(which can be up tolvl 9 spells) or simply take the restricted school completely.

It's useless to allow to take RWs levels at a later level when the second you take the class you lose access to all the spells you scribed and/or paid for.

[K'yon Oblodra]

What are you basing your balance issues on? Just on pnp?

Cause to me that class offers a hefty DC bonus and I do not see it as incredibly weak in comparison.

I am not a huge builder but from what I heard it's part of every DC based build if one wants to optimise the build in terms of power.

Maybe it is not the strongest out there but calling it weak is a bit of an exaggeration I feel.