Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

[DaloLorn]

Proposed PvP-out rules:
The surface elves surround the drow, clearly intending to end the perceived threat to their village, once and for all.
The drow have a surprise in store for their surface kin though... it's an ambush!
The surface elves are outnumbered by the drow, two to one, and the latter do not seem intent on giving their surface kin any quarter.
And yet, for whatever reason, the small army of drow decide to give the surface elves an ultimatum:
"Return to your settlement, with heads still attached, or fall here and now."

The elven players/characters must now choose to do one of several things:
Fight - Why would they? ESPECIALLY if dying/PVP loss is involved.
Flee - It's their PVP out, duh. The elves sulk off towards their village, flipping the bird back and mooning the drow as they leave.
Or attempt to parlay/negotiate - ... considering that the drow told them to leave or die, staying to talk(especially if smack-talk slips in there) might easily be construed as consenting to PVP.

Outcome:
Stalemate.
The drow can keep returning.
The elves can keep coming back too.
Whoever doesn't want to fight can just keep taking their PvP-out and walking away(flipping the bird/mooning are completely optional).

Proposed rules? I think you need to reread the PvP rules...

Only the intruder (UDer on surface, surfacer in UD) is treated as KoS. They still need to offer a PvP out before attacking the native races. This scenario is therefore perfectly viable under the current ruleset already, but only if the natives are the disadvantaged party.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Alright, I'll quickly run through pro-ruling responses before I get to the most ineteresting part.

Wow.

The rule is very, very obviously not designed to cause griefing. The rule dissuades accessing the surface by non-surface races, it creates an element of risk to any foray and it reflects the likely IC responses to such encounters. Feel free to suggest an alternative setup or rule that replaces these effects.

Griefing is actually very difficult to do using this specific rule. I would actually like to hear an example of such, anecdotal or imaginary even, that hinges on the existence of this rule. I have neither heard in game or seen on the forums anything regarding griefing from this rule.

Attacking someone without any RP or warnings provided (not even talking about outs) is griefing. If you try it against non-KoS targets you might get banned, but KoS rule legalizes such sort of bad attitude. If you use emotes to support your hostile intents, then KoS ruling is obsolette, but I'll describe it below.

I think the concern that most people are expressing isn't that there will be a rare sighting, but that if the rules change there will be a flood of Drow on the surface. It is just human (Player) nature to explore ones new boundaries and then push them further (Which is why rules even have to be put in to place at all). Maybe at the moment there is only a rare sighting, because there are rules put in to place at the moment, the ones trying to be changed.

KoS rule has no connection to drow population on the surface. RP environment and other regulations (such as RP reason requirement and drow banishment at most settlements) do. You can see an influx of drow on the surface lately, for example, irregardless of rulings. My reasoning behind removal of KoS is in the original post.

At most, mobs cry “KILL” as they attack on perception, no RP outs given.

I see an existing misunderstanding, in that UD beings...

See #4 from my original post, Steve! I'll also mention that an outright blind hostility by all surfacers against all drow is not lore, it's one of lore interpretations.

At the same time KOS seemed pretty straight forward when dealing with drow that try to sell gear outside the gates of the FAI under broad daylight, or when dealing with chars such as the coven of darkness etc

In a way, KOS keeps things real and even though in some cases there is no RP involved when the pvp incident takes places, there is always much RP in the aftermath. A drow appearance on the surface is a big event that usually gets discussed/RPed a lot.

The said drow gear merchant will just pull on a hood and will be a subject to normal PvP rules, while Coven of Darkness is a matter of reporting them to the DM team, not trying to solve it through attacking on sight, so these two examples don't really work. KoS ruling has nothing to do with suspense feeling either, as I mentioned many times before, it's a not-so-often used ruling that simple legalizes griefing.

So, some people here seem to be either unwilling or unable(?) to understand what we're talking about when it comes to impact on immersion. Let's see if I can clear up any misconceptions, using my earlier example of an actual in-game occurrence that I witnessed, and applying both the existing KoS rule VS the proposed PvP-out rule on how it might play out... BUT, based on RP occurring before-hand...

Now it's the most interesting part! The one everything wants to know, a.k.a. "if KoS is gone, how do we PvP the drow?". Snarfy has drawn quite an exaggerated scenario, while in fact what he mentioned under "with KoS" is what happens under normal PvP rules, while under "normal PvP rules" he mentioned a bad attitude that rarely happens and can still be dealt with, even ICly.

So let me illustrate instead.

With KoS:
The said group of elves approaches and sees drow. They can of course start Roleplaying as Snarfy described, no problem about this, but they can also just toggle drow hostile and start attacking them without any justification / warning / roleplay / anything, just outright killing their characters, doing something which is considered a deep form of griefing under normal PvP rules. And this will undeoubtedly result in drama. I am not saying this is how UD / surface conflicts are resolved (in fact, it happens from rarely to never), but enabling such sort of resolution is the only thing KoS rule provides, this is the thought I keep trying to explain.

Without KoS:
Overall, this goes like under Snarfy's "with KoS" for the most part. Under normal PvP rules, you still are allowed to show up on the scene, toggle all drow hostile and emote something like "*An angry elf shows up, preparing to turn the filthy drow into hedgehogs. He pulls his bow string, preparing to attack.*" Done! A super hostile encounter has started, and now it's time for drow to come up with a RP out because what you did just now is a PvP challenge. You toggled them hostile, so since this moment everything they do either counts as an out or as a hostile intent. And while it's true that outs are determined by the challenged party, not by agressors, it's also true that an out must -not- escalate hostility. So for example if a drow goes like "Away with you, elven filth, crawl back to your Doron Amar." and starts smugly walking away, you can just... shoot them down as long as you emoted your PvP challenge. Because what they did is not a RP out, it's a taunt.

As for ambush RP, the way it can be done on the server is one elf talking while others sneaking in shadows, and once PvP breaks out, they all suddenly attack. I've seen elves doing it many times and it honestly feels like an asshattery, but such PvP bait is perfectly legal according to the rules (since once PvP breaks out on a map, any other characters can freely take part on any side) so here you go.

As you can see, normal PvP rules still allow a ton of room for hostile resolution. KoS is simply obsolette, serving just two purposes - agressive flavor and legalizing griefing.

[selhan]

Leave the KOS rules as is.

"Hi Drow come meet my mommy and have dinner with us"

"Hi Human, come meet our Matron and drink with us."

Removing the KOS rule will only lead to dumb RP. RP outs should remain situational depending
on the players. Drizzt didnt get the red carpet, why should everyone else? Let the RP take fruit of a good story to tell.

By removing the rules, we can see what will happen in the future already. Drow Nobles and Dukes.

Human becoming Matron mothers spreading Loths name.

One of my toons went to the UD and was risking his life every step of the way. Luckly he made it out alive. But thats his own story. It wasnt created for him. It happened.

It was a risk he took. A worst senerio could have happened as well. But he was lucky.

Bad enough Assassinations cant even happen without a DM approval. In which case, it NEVER Seems to happen. Cause too much drama. Every Sin out there should just become Harper Agents at the way the server is going.

Let the RP outs be up to the players. They want to harbor Surface/UD race its their RP and their own risk. The consequences will remain. Thus keeping the RP in a creative path.

[Diamore]

Griefing is actually very difficult to do using this specific rule. I would actually like to hear an example of such, anecdotal or imaginary even, that hinges on the existence of this rule. I have neither heard in game or seen on the forums anything regarding griefing from this rule.

Attacking someoneone without any RP or warnings provided (not even talking about outs) is griefing. If you try it against non-KoS targets you might get banned, but KoS rule legalizes such sort of bad attitude. If you use emotes to support your hostile intents, then KoS ruling is obsolette, but I'll describe it below.

Using the following quoted rules and combining them with the requirement of RP reason to be in your non native region (surface or UD), please identify a method of griefing.

- You must always set your target(s) to hostile before initiating PvP. No exceptions. PvP includes regular attacks, Knockdown, Curse Song, offensive spells (e.g. dispelling spells, debuffs), and any mechanical action that results in a negative mechanical effect on the other character.

- Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.

As for ambush RP, the way it can be done on the server is one elf talking while others sneaking in shadows, and once PvP breaks out, they all suddenly attack. I've seen elves doing it many times and it honestly feels like an asshattery, but such PvP bait is perfectly legal according to the rules (since once PvP breaks out on a map, any other characters can freely take part on any side) so here you go.

The example posted here actually seems more like a contender for "legal" griefing than any you have mentioned in regards to the KOS rules. I would like to see an example of what you would consider legalised griefing that is more worthy of reviewing the KOS rule than the "anyone on the map can join in" one you have just used.

[Steve]

Drow are the same race as an elf or human in terms of rights and responsibilities.

Only in the Underdark. On the Surface, they are a Monster, for all intents and purposes IC and OOC. And that is what makes Drow KoS on the Surface.

"it was your choice to play a drow, you made it so suffer" arguments just... don't work, it's an outright OOC hostility and toxicity, not a valid point of view.

It is completely valid under the current Rules, and though you obviously don’t like it, others are completely fine with it. You can say it’s OOC hostility and toxicity until your blue in the face, but that doesn’t make it true.

A Drow on the Surface is KoS in the majority of Areas, because they are IC considered, in the whole, Monsters with a big fat capital M.

[Deragnost]

midnight meet at the mushroom grove in Sharpteeth for some Eilistraeen kumbaya'ing

... four or five drow(a few unmasked), plus three non-drow cohorts, having a meeting exactly one transition away from a surface elf settlement. And... little old my elf, hiding in the bushes. Needless to say, he did not show himself, or start stabbing folks.

Lel i was one of the non-drow there. It was a bit weird But there was a reason I was there.


But aside that, I believe that rule should stay as long as there's RP involved. Not like that one time that I saw a player coming, killing and leaving without saying a word.
Both in UD and Surface, that happened to me - with different characters.
So yes, add RP in your KoS situations. Thanks.

[yyj]

This KoS rule is irrelevant, a lot of people in favor of it simply don't do it.

Surface drow RP happens and will keep happening no matter the KoS rules, it's the way it is. You can respond to it IC better or ignore it.

[Snarfy]

Without KoS:
Overall, this goes like under Snarfy's "with KoS" for the most part. Under normal PvP rules, you still are allowed to show up on the scene, toggle all drow hostile and emote something like "*An angry elf shows up, preparing to turn the filthy drow into hedgehogs. He pulls his bow string, preparing to attack.*" Done! A super hostile encounter has started, and now it's time for drow to come up with a RP out because what you did just now is a PvP challenge. You toggled them hostile, so since this moment everything they do either counts as an out or as a hostile intent. And while it's true that outs are determined by the challenged party, not by aggressors...

Your example is way better than mine. For illuminating how horrific this could potentially be be for immersion, and RP, that is.

Alright, lets play, shall we? An angry elf shows up, aims at the drow, ready to attack. Now the challenged party can decide to invent any number of ludicrous RP reasons as an out, or even just say "Nau", and walk away.

"Why the hells did you let that drow live!?"
"... well, they said they were a nice drow. So... I had to?"

Ummm, it's still a pass on removing the KoS rule, thanks.

As for ambush RP, the way it can be done on the server is one elf character talking while others sneaking in shadows..

Well, it is called an AMBUSH for a reason. Also, fixed that for you.

...and once PvP breaks out, they all suddenly attack. I've seen elves doing it many times and it honestly feels like an asshattery...

I've seen non-elves do this just as much as elves. Maybe even more. I'm sensing a little bias here...

Anyways, this subject is giving me grief. Therefore, you guys are all griefing me, good grief. I'm outta here.

[yyj]

I doubt your elf ever gets in that position to be pointing at a drow with a bow on their face, but let's say it happens.
The elf can just say the drow escaped. The other elf then can help the other one set up patrols or make an angry bulletin board post yelling at others, w/e they want to do , they can, if said elf wants pats on the back for killing drow, just go below the FAI there are a few drow spawns there, if they want a pat on the back for killing an actual drow PC just go camp to the ogre cave entrance to the underdark.

[chad878262]

If I am being honest there could be some argument to be made for making everyone Kill on Sight when not in 'safe' lands. At a minimum instead of PCs that do not know each other meeting on the road or in the wilderness and acting like fast friends folks might (rightfully) treat each other as potential threats and be more cautious toward each other.

My thought is if there are monsters on the map that spawn (not just 'ambush' scripts a la FAI, but constantly spawning monsters) then there should not be any RP out rules. If you are attacked, you run, or you fight, it's a dangerous world out there.

The only rule I would really institute with this is if a PC is more than 5 levels above the CR (the max the CR dynamic spawn script will recognize IIRC) and they are griefing lower level PCs in an area then they get banned for some amount of time on the first offense. Then on future offenses more severe penalties perhaps resulting in permanent ban on the 3rd offense.

Point being there will always need to be OOC rules in place because there is a really wide level range and in some cases an epic PC goes through non-epic content to get to epic content (or to complete non-level appropriate quests or to get no-risk loot. ) These PCs should be required to avoid initiating PvP against lowbies (of course if the lowbie starts it, fair game!)

[Deragnost]

Actually, having a KoS for everyone in every land except safe zones like cities (Soubar, BG, Beregost, FAI, Rockrun, Sshamath, Nashkel, Greenest and the like) would be quite interesting! Giving that piece of tension for everyone - as long as it doesn't translate as "let's hunt lowbies, people!", but certainly it would make sense.

[Rinzler]

If I am being honest there could be some argument to be made for making everyone Kill on Sight when not in 'safe' lands.

The only rule I would really institute with this is if a PC is more than 5 levels above the CR (the max the CR dynamic spawn script will recognize IIRC) and they are griefing lower level PCs in an area then they get banned for some amount of time on the first offense.

This is an interesting concept which I think I'm in support of. It would also create a great RP mechanic for "escort services" to be actually used on a regular basis.

However, countering my own argument: I'm sure the non KoS rules are in place to prevent a tremendous amount of headache that the staff has had to deal with in the past.

[Tanlaus]

If I am being honest there could be some argument to be made for making everyone Kill on Sight when not in 'safe' lands.

The only rule I would really institute with this is if a PC is more than 5 levels above the CR (the max the CR dynamic spawn script will recognize IIRC) and they are griefing lower level PCs in an area then they get banned for some amount of time on the first offense.

This is an interesting concept which I think I'm in support of. It would also create a great RP mechanic for "escort services" to be actually used on a regular basis.

However, countering my own argument: I'm sure the non KoS rules are in place to prevent a tremendous amount of headache that the staff has had to deal with in the past.

I actually agree with Chad as well, this would make for a more interesting RP environment in general.

Maybe it would be worth having a trail period. Like see how it goes for a week in terms of how the player base reacts and reflects in it after.

I’d be willing to bet that for the most part things wouldn’t change much between players because most people on this server are not innately hostile.

But it would add tension to two opposing factions (even just opposing surface factions) meeting in the wild.

And if I’m completely wrong and everyone turns into hardcore griefers after a week, could always change it back.

[Almarea90]

I honestly don't think we will magically find drow dukes or human matrons just because we will have to emote or write something instead of turning hostile and attacking straight away. Mechanical hostile and kill is not the only way to make an environment hostile for UD races, imho.

[selhan]

"Griefing
Do not intentionally disrupt or harass other players, either with mechanics or other means. This includes, but is not limited to, stealing from campfires/packhorses, exploiting summons to bypass PvP rules, or herding enemies to have them attack players."

Im Sorry UD players seen near the Gates vice versa Surface found in the UD Tunnels..is against IC LAWS. They knew it and broke it. Dont need to ask questions first. Theres no Griefing there.

Guild infiltration work the same way. The player knows the laws, they take the risk. How it plays out? Oh well, better hope their deity on their side. If not sorry reroll or ask the person that just shot an arrow at you to just leave you beaten and allow you to go home.

Some people to quick to call out griefing when there aint even any pvp to begin with. Its quite simple, stay within the context of the rules, and the game will be less complicated to play.