Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Just going to throw this in there, and it may/may not be appropriate, but here it is.

As it stands, Toman is roughly 22-23 and has roughly 32 AC. He's nowhere near geared enough to do much of anything, so the areas he CAN handle, are probably a little low level for him, but he can survive it. The rewards vs risk for the higher levels are just not worth it, either IC or OOC. As a result, he tends to stand watch and poke at the mining guild about opening up crafting.

I'm all for exploring as there's areas I'd love to poke around in, but as others have said, the chances of getting a group for a casual player isn't that high. Additionally, since the yields from hitting those areas are rather poor, it's just not worth it as of late. Hells, he's donated books by the dozens to the Phoenix, and has had enough magical scrolls to make a book. But actual coin or useful supplies/gear? Not so much. Burning through resources to only find ten gold and a potion of barkskin is depressing.

Wandering_Woodsman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:23 am Just going to throw this in there, and it may/may not be appropriate, but here it is.

As it stands, Toman is roughly 22-23 and has roughly 32 AC. He's nowhere near geared enough to do much of anything, so the areas he CAN handle, are probably a little low level for him, but he can survive it. The rewards vs risk for the higher levels are just not worth it, either IC or OOC. As a result, he tends to stand watch and poke at the mining guild about opening up crafting.

I'm all for exploring as there's areas I'd love to poke around in, but as others have said, the chances of getting a group for a casual player isn't that high. Additionally, since the yields from hitting those areas are rather poor, it's just not worth it as of late. Hells, he's donated books by the dozens to the Phoenix, and has had enough magical scrolls to make a book. But actual coin or useful supplies/gear? Not so much. Burning through resources to only find ten gold and a potion of barkskin is depressing.

This isn’t an isolated incident as other servers in the past have had the same problems. Again there is a reason we have few tank pure melee builds and a lot magic as well as stealth/archer builds. I rarely see monks, barbarians, pure paladins, pure fighters, etc.

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:19 pm

Wandering_Woodsman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:23 am Just going to throw this in there, and it may/may not be appropriate, but here it is.

As it stands, Toman is roughly 22-23 and has roughly 32 AC. He's nowhere near geared enough to do much of anything, so the areas he CAN handle, are probably a little low level for him, but he can survive it. The rewards vs risk for the higher levels are just not worth it, either IC or OOC. As a result, he tends to stand watch and poke at the mining guild about opening up crafting.

I'm all for exploring as there's areas I'd love to poke around in, but as others have said, the chances of getting a group for a casual player isn't that high. Additionally, since the yields from hitting those areas are rather poor, it's just not worth it as of late. Hells, he's donated books by the dozens to the Phoenix, and has had enough magical scrolls to make a book. But actual coin or useful supplies/gear? Not so much. Burning through resources to only find ten gold and a potion of barkskin is depressing.

This isn’t an isolated incident as other servers in the past have had the same problems. Again there is a reason we have few tank pure melee builds and a lot magic as well as stealth/archer builds. I rarely see monks, barbarians, pure paladins, pure fighters, etc.

A pure monk just soloed the white dragon.

I’ve watched pure paladins solo the other dragons.

I run around with a weapon master/black guard build that can solo everything except the white dragon.

I reject your premise about the weakness of pure melee.

I will say though that early to mid 20s might be the most difficult spot level-wise. You need epic content to progress at a decent rate but you are on the low end of handling that content.

Can't forget MaAs and DDs, too.

a few specific builds i believe are being referenced here. hopefully that doesnt mean everyone else is just out of luck

Rhifox wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:14 pm Can't forget MaAs and DDs, too.

Yes and thank you

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:11 pm

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:19 pm

Wandering_Woodsman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:23 am Just going to throw this in there, and it may/may not be appropriate, but here it is.

As it stands, Toman is roughly 22-23 and has roughly 32 AC. He's nowhere near geared enough to do much of anything, so the areas he CAN handle, are probably a little low level for him, but he can survive it. The rewards vs risk for the higher levels are just not worth it, either IC or OOC. As a result, he tends to stand watch and poke at the mining guild about opening up crafting.

I'm all for exploring as there's areas I'd love to poke around in, but as others have said, the chances of getting a group for a casual player isn't that high. Additionally, since the yields from hitting those areas are rather poor, it's just not worth it as of late. Hells, he's donated books by the dozens to the Phoenix, and has had enough magical scrolls to make a book. But actual coin or useful supplies/gear? Not so much. Burning through resources to only find ten gold and a potion of barkskin is depressing.

This isn’t an isolated incident as other servers in the past have had the same problems. Again there is a reason we have few tank pure melee builds and a lot magic as well as stealth/archer builds. I rarely see monks, barbarians, pure paladins, pure fighters, etc.

A pure monk just soloed the white dragon.

I’ve watched pure paladins solo the other dragons.

I run around with a weapon master/black guard build that can solo everything except the white dragon.

I reject your premise about the weakness of pure melee.

I will say though that early to mid 20s might be the most difficult spot level-wise. You need epic content to progress at a decent rate but you are on the low end of handling that content.

1. Mi-le is a well known monk and i tried with him. I know what monks can do. I haven’t seen one in a while.

2. If you seen Paladins solo sragons then they weren’t solo. Same with the monk.

3. I knocked black dragon on its arse? I am sorry but when did the dragon become a measuring stick? I am not sure what it is being applied to. Repeatedly getting hit by a non-savings spell or a trap that ignore reflex saves/evasion. How do those compare to a dragon?

4. Most melee characters are strength based so yeah they are far from weak and knockdown any creature without knock down immunity. Their weakness is debugfs, magic, and non-saving mechanics. I am not sure how or why dragons fit into this. I can critical hit and knockdown a dragon. I cannot critical hit a lich or much less hit a buff up lich even with blindfight. Then there is the spellcasting...

5. Not sure what you mean by low end as most pure melees (Which paladins are not) are low end.

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:26 pm

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:11 pm

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:19 pm

This isn’t an isolated incident as other servers in the past have had the same problems. Again there is a reason we have few tank pure melee builds and a lot magic as well as stealth/archer builds. I rarely see monks, barbarians, pure paladins, pure fighters, etc.

A pure monk just soloed the white dragon.

I’ve watched pure paladins solo the other dragons.

I run around with a weapon master/black guard build that can solo everything except the white dragon.

I reject your premise about the weakness of pure melee.

I will say though that early to mid 20s might be the most difficult spot level-wise. You need epic content to progress at a decent rate but you are on the low end of handling that content.

1. Mi-le is a well known monk and i tried with him. I know what monks can do. I haven’t seen one in a while.

2. If you seen Paladins solo sragons then they weren’t solo. Same with the monk.

3. I knocked black dragon on its arse? I am sorry but when did the dragon become a measuring stick? I am not sure what it is being applied to. Repeatedly getting hit by a non-savings spell or a trap that ignore reflex saves/evasion. How do those compare to a dragon?

4. Most melee characters are strength based so yeah they are far from weak and knockdown any creature without knock down immunity. Their weakness is debugfs, magic, and non-saving mechanics. I am not sure how or why dragons fit into this. I can critical hit and knockdown a dragon. I cannot critical hit a lich or much less hit a buff up lich even with blindfight. Then there is the spellcasting...

5. Not sure what you mean by low end as most pure melees (Which paladins are not) are low end.

By low end I mean level wise you are at the low end of epic content. In other words what is a struggle to solo now won’t be so much when you are say 27 - 30. I’m taking levels not builds.

People solo dragons and post video. I watched the video of a monk soloing the white. It’s long and boring.

I also watched as in stood and watched a black guard/weapon master solo the UD pit fiends. Watched a melee ranger do the same.

My point with dragons and pit fiends is that there is plenty of epic content melees can solo. Can you solo everything in the game in your low 20s? No. Should you be able to? I don’t think so. Kind of makes the game trivial if you can no?

Also if you’re struggling in your low 20s you could to the ogre caves in the troll claws, chests should be ok for you. Then down to Kro’s labyrinth and Kro’s descent. Lots of chests between all the areas. Outside of a few ogre magi and the ogre chief it’s mostly melee. Should be an easy run.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:39 pm By low end I mean level wise you are at the low end of epic content. In other words what is a struggle to solo now won’t be so much when you are say 27 - 30. I’m taking levels not builds.

People solo dragons and post video. I watched the video of a monk soloing the white. It’s long and boring.

I also watched as in stood and watched a black guard/weapon master solo the UD pit fiends. Watched a melee ranger do the same.

My point with dragons and pit fiends is that there is plenty of epic content melees can solo. Can you solo everything in the game in your low 20s? No. Should you be able to? I don’t think so. Kind of makes the game trivial if you can no?

Also if you’re struggling in your low 20s you could to the ogre caves in the troll claws, chests should be ok for you. Then down to Kro’s labyrinth and Kro’s descent. Lots of chests between all the areas. Outside of a few ogre magi and the ogre chief it’s mostly melee. Should be an easy run.

1. A level 1 and a level 30 pure fighter would fair the same with a tower shield, weapon, and fullplate armor. Both would do really good if wearing epic level equipment. A level 30 fighter can push further, do more damage, and has more accuracy to hit, but he still has the same problem as a level 1 fighter since both share identical weakness to knockdown immunity enemies, noncritical hit enemies, non-saving magic, unavoidable damage, low saves.

2. All pure melee share equipment and item dependency which can cost them a fortune. Spellcasters can save money on equipment thanks to spells and don’t really need items to remove aliment or heal. (Well depending on the spellcasting class)

3. So its not necessarily levels, but how dependent your build is on outside sources, including other players as well as their class. You can’t compare a monk with a fighter or rogue since monks evolve while fighters snd rogues do not.

But i fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand. Also how does a pure fighter can a troll?

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:14 pm

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:39 pm By low end I mean level wise you are at the low end of epic content. In other words what is a struggle to solo now won’t be so much when you are say 27 - 30. I’m taking levels not builds.

People solo dragons and post video. I watched the video of a monk soloing the white. It’s long and boring.

I also watched as in stood and watched a black guard/weapon master solo the UD pit fiends. Watched a melee ranger do the same.

My point with dragons and pit fiends is that there is plenty of epic content melees can solo. Can you solo everything in the game in your low 20s? No. Should you be able to? I don’t think so. Kind of makes the game trivial if you can no?

Also if you’re struggling in your low 20s you could to the ogre caves in the troll claws, chests should be ok for you. Then down to Kro’s labyrinth and Kro’s descent. Lots of chests between all the areas. Outside of a few ogre magi and the ogre chief it’s mostly melee. Should be an easy run.

1. A level 1 and a level 30 pure fighter would fair the same with a tower shield, weapon, and fullplate armor. Both would do really good if wearing epic level equipment. A level 30 fighter can push further, do more damage, and has more accuracy to hit, but he still has the same problem as a level 1 fighter since both share identical weakness to knockdown immunity enemies, noncritical hit enemies, non-saving magic, unavoidable damage, low saves.

2. All pure melee share equipment and item dependency which can cost them a fortune. Spellcasters can save money on equipment thanks to spells and don’t really need items to remove aliment or heal. (Well depending on the spellcasting class)

3. So its not necessarily levels, but how dependent your build is on outside sources, including other players as well as their class. You can’t compare a monk with a fighter or rogue since monks evolve while fighters snd rogues do not.

But i fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand. Also how does a pure fighter can a troll?

The argument that a level 1 and a level 30 fighter are remotely comparable is just not mechanically sound. At all. BAB, ability scores, HP, feats- oh so many feats- more than a few of which effect AC... if you think they are remotely capable of attempting similar challenges because of similar gear then I genuinely think your understanding of basic game mechanics is an issue.

Also, a pure fighter kills a troll by using acid or fire, same as anyone else. You don’t even need magic. You could beat it down with a hammer then switch to a torch once it’s incapacitated. This is outside of the fact that there are plenty of weapons with fire or acid damage on them.

Lastly, I leveled a pure rogue from 1 to 30 just to test it mechanically from start to finish. My one note was to lower the HiTS timer so it becomes instant before 21. Outside of that the character definitely evolved significantly from 1 - 30. Rogues are probably the worst class to level in lower levels.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmThe argument that a level 1 and a level 30 fighter are remotely comparable is just not mechanically sound. At all. BAB, ability scores, HP, feats- oh so many feats- more than a few of which effect AC... if you think they are remotely capable of attempting similar challenges because of similar gear then I genuinely think your understanding of basic game mechanics is an issue.

Quote, "A level 1 and a level 30 pure fighter would fair the same with a tower shield, weapon, and fullplate armor. Both would do really good if wearing epic level equipment. A level 30 fighter can push further, do more damage, and has more accuracy to hit..."

So I acknowledge that the level 30 fighter can do more.

Quote, "...but he still has the same problem as a level 1 fighter since both share identical weakness to knockdown immunity enemies, noncritical hit enemies, non-saving magic, unavoidable damage, low saves."

At what point can a level 30 fighter can critical hit a lich? No matter how you build your fighter or what level you, you have the same weakness as a level 1 fighter because mechanically, you don't have an the ability to critical hit undead. This is where a level 1 and level 30 are parallel and that's just one thing out of many they share.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmAlso, a pure fighter kills a troll by using acid or fire, same as anyone else.

So the Fighter class comes with spells?

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmYou don’t even need magic.

For a pure melee you need magic, scrolls, weapons that have acid/fire, and acid/fire traps. All of which cost money, which bring me back to me original argument about how the server caters to one group, but not the other and why non-spellcasting tank characters are scarce. On top of this with old areas offer chump change for high level characters, you are limited to high level areas for farming gold. As Toman said, us causal players have a hard time getting with groups (and many players cut off their location to prevent OOC coincidental meet ups) To play a pure melee character cost more money than playing a spellcasting character. This isn't a one size fits all server either. So new players who aren't well establish and ARE CAUSAL players find it hard to make money. It cost for 10 scrolls of Energy immunity, A wand of Death Ward, or Improve Mage Armor each 20k. (Not counting other scrolls, potions, and wands) If a run through 3 dungeon is 10k each in worth of item and all those places have dispels and you run through your scrolls/wand, how much did you make? ...Or should I say lose. And that's not counting healing potions (7k to 9k on auction spending up to 14k to 18k for just two packs) and healing kit packs. (670 per 10 pack for a total of 5960 if you buy 8 of them)

The problem isn't the trolls or just the trolls. The problem is the overall picture. Most Pure melee class spend oodles amount of money to do what spellcasters do for free. Almost like a paid to win gimmick, but minus the real money. (virtual money instead)

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmLastly, I leveled a pure rogue from 1 to 30 just to test it mechanically from start to finish. My one note was to lower the HiTS timer so it becomes instant before 21. Outside of that the character definitely evolved significantly from 1 - 30. Rogues are probably the worst class to level in lower levels.

So you got spell resistance, immunity to poison, immunity to disease, immunity to mind spells, free AC without attributes, free feats without bonus, and increase movement speed? Did your mundane damage (not sneak attack) increase? Maybe you misunderstand what I mean by evolve because Monk have medium gameplay curve as they are hard to level up in the beginning, but once they get above level 9 and start getting more immunity to their environment their whole gameplay evolves and they become boring very quickly. Add on UMD and elemental resistance they can be nigh-untouchable except to non-saving trap and spell that ignore resistance of all times. (Though they still have trouble in certain other areas too)

ARHicks00 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:07 pm

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmThe argument that a level 1 and a level 30 fighter are remotely comparable is just not mechanically sound. At all. BAB, ability scores, HP, feats- oh so many feats- more than a few of which effect AC... if you think they are remotely capable of attempting similar challenges because of similar gear then I genuinely think your understanding of basic game mechanics is an issue.

Quote, "A level 1 and a level 30 pure fighter would fair the same with a tower shield, weapon, and fullplate armor. Both would do really good if wearing epic level equipment. A level 30 fighter can push further, do more damage, and has more accuracy to hit..."

So I acknowledge that the level 30 fighter can do more.

Quote, "...but he still has the same problem as a level 1 fighter since both share identical weakness to knockdown immunity enemies, noncritical hit enemies, non-saving magic, unavoidable damage, low saves."

At what point can a level 30 fighter can critical hit a lich? No matter how you build your fighter or what level you, you have the same weakness as a level 1 fighter because mechanically, you don't have an the ability to critical hit undead. This is where a level 1 and level 30 are parallel and that's just one thing out of many they share.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmAlso, a pure fighter kills a troll by using acid or fire, same as anyone else.

So the Fighter class comes with spells?

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmYou don’t even need magic.

For a pure melee you need magic, scrolls, weapons that have acid/fire, and acid/fire traps. All of which cost money, which bring me back to me original argument about how the server caters to one group, but not the other and why non-spellcasting tank characters are scarce. On top of this with old areas offer chump change for high level characters, you are limited to high level areas for farming gold. As Toman said, us causal players have a hard time getting with groups (and many players cut off their location to prevent OOC coincidental meet ups) To play a pure melee character cost more money than playing a spellcasting character. This isn't a one size fits all server either. So new players who aren't well establish and ARE CAUSAL players find it hard to make money. It cost for 10 scrolls of Energy immunity, A wand of Death Ward, or Improve Mage Armor each 20k. (Not counting other scrolls, potions, and wands) If a run through 3 dungeon is 10k each in worth of item and all those places have dispels and you run through your scrolls/wand, how much did you make? ...Or should I say lose. And that's not counting healing potions (7k to 9k on auction spending up to 14k to 18k for just two packs) and healing kit packs. (670 per 10 pack for a total of 5960 if you buy 8 of them)

The problem isn't the trolls or just the trolls. The problem is the overall picture. Most Pure melee class spend oodles amount of money to do what spellcasters do for free. Almost like a paid to win gimmick, but minus the real money. (virtual money instead)

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:09 pmLastly, I leveled a pure rogue from 1 to 30 just to test it mechanically from start to finish. My one note was to lower the HiTS timer so it becomes instant before 21. Outside of that the character definitely evolved significantly from 1 - 30. Rogues are probably the worst class to level in lower levels.

So you got spell resistance, immunity to poison, immunity to disease, immunity to mind spells, free AC without attributes, free feats without bonus, and increase movement speed? Did your mundane damage (not sneak attack) increase? Maybe you misunderstand what I mean by evolve because Monk have medium gameplay curve as they are hard to level up in the beginning, but once they get above level 9 and start getting more immunity to their environment their whole gameplay evolves and they become boring very quickly. Add on UMD and elemental resistance they can be nigh-untouchable except to non-saving trap and spell that ignore resistance of all times. (Though they still have trouble in certain other areas too)

You conveniently skipped my advice about using a torch in trolls. No you don’t need magic to kill them, but to your larger point, yes you do need magic gear in general. Lots of it. That’s part of the game.

As any non caster class you are gear dependent in a way casting classes are not so much. Though they often spend plenty on gear themselves, mostly for spell slots or other ways to augment their skills or magic.

And no you cannot critical hit undead but you can knock them down and beat them to death. Yes you have to buy something to kill a troll, fire daggers are cheap. Torches are cheaper. You know what helps against a lich? Get a shield or ring or bracers or cloak with high SR. Swap it out for that fight. Makes a huge difference. Yes you need epic gear to deal with epic content. That’s true or pretty much everyone.

But again, you don’t need it all right away. You’re not meant to solo everything in the server. Casters often have trouble with bosses that have inflated saves more than melee characters do. Hipster archers can shred tons of content but struggle against things like dragons that have high spot, tons of HP and move fast.

Look we could debate this all day but the server isn’t going to change to make it easy for every build to solo.

I’ll repeat my advice one more time. If you’re low 20s you can do ogre caves in the troll claws then kro’s labyrinth then Kro’s descent. Probably the troll caves as well depending on your build. That’s 4 areas with plenty of chests and bosses that drop loot. Very little casting to deal with as well. Should be a pretty solid run for both XP and gold.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:43 pm I’ll repeat my advice one more time. If you’re low 20s you can do ogre caves in the troll claws then kro’s labyrinth then Kro’s descent. Probably the troll caves as well depending on your build. That’s 4 areas with plenty of chests and bosses that drop loot. Very little casting to deal with as well. Should be a pretty solid run for both XP and gold.

While this is solid advice for a temporary yet significant moment in the development/experience gain of any melee character—or any character for that matter—I think the problem is one more of "being told what to do..." and possible only 1-2 avenues for "success," instead how (many?) players once were able to make their own adventure/grind route, that was rather easy gains, EVEN IF it sometimes "disturbed" CR appropriate grinders/groups going about their RP, or not, just grinding as well.

No one likes their game experience "taken away"...and I think for some, that is just how it feels.

IMHO, it just takes A LOT of RL time to grind away successfully or unsuccessfully in order to acquire those precious "level ups" that are, at the end of the day, the actual and only reward FOR spending all that RL time. If a player feels like their reward is either a) more difficult to acquire; b) more "railroaded" into this or that avenue dictated to them; or c) actually spends more RL time for actual less gain—and this is just FOREVER going to be far to subjective to ever agree on perfection—there are going to be continual gripes and grievances.

But here is the deal, probably the best deal everyone and anyone is going to get: Staff is saying that further adjustments to the Loot Rebalance are coming, hopefully addressing some very clear shortcomings, but, that will not likely happen until the Server Split is 99% reliable.

One more thing to chew on: if you or I or they are a casual player, I'm sorry to say but you'll probably only gain casual rewards in your adventuring/looting/exploring/OOC relaxing game play. It is simply proven, before AND after the Rebalance, that to gain good returns one needs to loot with wild abandon and lots, and often, and consistently. Even with the Rebalance probably turning out more epic loot, it does not mean you'll find it! I proved that, myself. Once again, unless you the player are totally invested in the loot running program hard core, don't expect hard core gains.

And if you ONCE could generate hard core gains from casual investment, I think in this new paradigm, you are just SOL. You'll have to adjust.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:43 pm you do need magic gear in general. Lots of it. That’s part of the game.

As another poster pointed out in another topic. You are literally a question I never asked. It's called strawmaning. Its when you beat another argument. Its like you did with the dragon measuring stick that had nothing to do with what the disadvantage of a melee character. That's had nothing to do with what my argument at all. Also

Quote, "The problem isn't the trolls or just the trolls. The problem is the overall picture. Most Pure melee class spend oodles amount of money to do what spellcasters do for free. Almost like a paid to win gimmick, but minus the real money. (virtual money instead)"

Trolls are but a small part of where melee characters have problems in and purposely debunking the discussion to talk about trolls, which I never brought up. You answered your own question. So why would I have to acknowledge it? The problem with the server is the amount of money being spent to...make money. Also trolls battle are not always one-on-one fights so you will find yourself surrounded on more than one occasion. So you will get get damaged, knockdown, etc. I spent a fortune on healing items as my build uses a flaming bastard sword with a 49 AC. (I also noted all my items are +4 epic level)

So that's why I skipped over your statement.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:43 pm As any non caster class you are gear dependent in a way casting classes are not so much. Though they often spend plenty on gear themselves, mostly for spell slots or other ways to augment their skills or magic.

I rarely had to do that as a cleric.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:43 pm And no you cannot critical hit undead but you can knock them down and beat them to death.

Which answered nothing...we were talking about a level 1 fighter and a level 30 fighter were the same because they don't gain any news abilities to handle undead. My point was that fighters regardless of level or build, are straight forward in both their gameplay and building process. Spellcasters are based on levels as well as monks. Monks go from missing a lot and staying far back to being a flurry of fist and feet that can end a fight almost as fast as it began. Even if it is long and drawn out, they can tank long enough to get the job done due to having feats decrease hit chance, heal, stun, and raise their AC.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:43 pmYes you have to buy something to kill a troll, fire daggers are cheap. Torches are cheaper. You know what helps against a lich? Get a shield or ring or bracers or cloak with high SR. Swap it out for that fight. Makes a huge difference. Yes you need epic gear to deal with epic content. That’s true or pretty much everyone.

1. Once again, you answering stuff not even asked. Acid spell ignore SR as I addressed earlier, traps ignore evasion (even with reflex saves), etc. the list goes on.

2. You can also kill a lich with silence wand/scroll. The rest of what you said...still prove my point. High SR items, silence wands/scroll, etc all cost money (which requires months of farming) and not all players are going to have their items on them at the same time. If I have to use all those items, I might well play Cleric, druid, bard, or mage who can do it for free. You defeat your own argument and outsmarted yourself at the same time. You didn't provide a way to overcome a problem but how to make a gameplay more tedious for a pure melee player. That and having an overwhelm inventory of items just to tackle a problem. Epic items cost 2/4th to 3/4th of a million each. Over 10 piece of equipment, you have to farm between (Left hand, right hand, helmet, left ring, right ring, body armor, boots, gloves, necklace, and belts) 3,000,000 gold pieces to 7 million gold pieces. (Again, not counting the healing potions, kits, scrolls, and wands) As I said, you only make 10k per dungeon at epic levels.

But again, you don’t need it all right away.

As I said, you outsmarted yourself and defeated your own argument at the same time. How else would I do high level areas without high level equipment.

You’re not meant to solo everything in the server. Casters often have trouble with bosses that have inflated saves more than melee characters do. Hipster archers can shred tons of content but struggle against things like dragons that have high spot, tons of HP and move fast.

1. NON-SAVING SPELLS. I have been saying this repeatedly. Most spellcasters have these abilities. You act like every mage cast fireball. Ice Storm requires no saves.

2. SPELLSWORDS. Rangers, Paladins, Battle Cleric/Balance Cleric, Battle Druids, Skard-Bards, and Battle-Mages have one or two methods of dealing with problems. BUFF UP AND SMASH WHATEVER IS IN FRONT THEM. Except for Paladins and Rangers, if that doesn't work sit back and do #1.

Mages and Spellswords cannot solo content that outlast their buffs, can debuff them easy, or last their spell list.

Look we could debate this all day but the server isn’t going to change to make it easy for every build to solo.

We could debate all day and you would come up with things that nobody said or ask for.

I’ll repeat my advice one more time.

You didn't give me advice. Like the other poster, you made assumptions and gave me bad advice for build you know nothing about. You're not even listening so why are you even rebunking everyone's post you disagree with?

Steve wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:09 pm While this is solid advice for a temporary yet significant moment in the development/experience gain of any melee character—or any character for that matter—I think the problem is one more of "being told what to do..." and possible only 1-2 avenues for "success," instead how (many?) players once were able to make their own adventure/grind route, that was rather easy gains, EVEN IF it sometimes "disturbed" CR appropriate grinders/groups going about their RP, or not, just grinding as well.

No one likes their game experience "taken away"...and I think for some, that is just how it feels.

IMHO, it just takes A LOT of RL time to grind away successfully or unsuccessfully in order to acquire those precious "level ups" that are, at the end of the day, the actual and only reward FOR spending all that RL time. If a player feels like their reward is either a) more difficult to acquire; b) more "railroaded" into this or that avenue dictated to them; or c) actually spends more RL time for actual less gain—and this is just FOREVER going to be far to subjective to ever agree on perfection—there are going to be continual gripes and grievances.

But here is the deal, probably the best deal everyone and anyone is going to get: Staff is saying that further adjustments to the Loot Rebalance are coming, hopefully addressing some very clear shortcomings, but, that will not likely happen until the Server Split is 99% reliable.

One more thing to chew on: if you or I or they are a casual player, I'm sorry to say but you'll probably only gain casual rewards in your adventuring/looting/exploring/OOC relaxing game play. It is simply proven, before AND after the Rebalance, that to gain good returns one needs to loot with wild abandon and lots, and often, and consistently. Even with the Rebalance probably turning out more epic loot, it does not mean you'll find it! I proved that, myself. Once again, unless you the player are totally invested in the loot running program hard core, don't expect hard core gains.

And if you ONCE could generate hard core gains from casual investment, I think in this new paradigm, you are just SOL. You'll have to adjust.

1. Not really solid advice since he didn't address any of my issues.

2. Yeah that's why the loot system is not working right now. Most of us are parents who have kids and jobs. Not all of us can live off our parents. I work a 6 to 3.5 job as supervisor so I can't just loot all day. Maybe a kid during a holiday break can or during his/her sick days, but I can't afford to sit home all day. Its safe to say that I'm not the only causal player as many long time players only come on specific days and at specific hours. With that being said, what you said pretty unrealistic...UNLESS THIS IS AN MMORPG? If so, can I pay real money to win virtually?

And I know about to catch a lot of crap for making a comparsion, but this is similar to the Dalelands player-based enchanting system. Both the attitude you presented (I'm not throwing insult at you sir) and time needed to invest. All the enchanters left, thus mining became useless because only one or two enchanters came on occasionally. If you didn't meet them, you were SOL for weeks to months. DMs had to allow muling and they had to step in personally to enchant the items using their DM powers. For their new server (if they ever get around to finishing it), they are doing away with player based enchanting and leaving it up to the NPCs. Trying to make a server into a heavy investing server only discourage new players and causal players UNLESS the older players sell their epic level findings for cheap or give them hand me downs. Same gimmick can be seen in pay to win games because if you don't pay, causal players who invest little or nothing at all leave a game due to the lack of advancement.