Nerf (Hellfire) Warlock

[cosmic ray]

Instead of making bad classes good, we should make all good classes bad. Only when everything is totally unplayable will we all achieve our perfect forms as roleplayers.

[EasternCheesE]

Many builds can solo whole server. It's a matter of UMD and gold.

[c2k]

Many builds can solo whole server. It's a matter of UMD and gold.

Agreed here. I think what makes Warlock so strong is their innate and bonus applications of UMD, because that allows them to shore up the weaknesses.

[Steve]

Many builds can solo whole server. It's a matter of UMD and gold.

Pics and videos...or it's not true!!!!

[EasternCheesE]

Many builds can solo whole server. It's a matter of UMD and gold.

Pics and videos...or it's not true!!!!

While we had a big discussion, i just made my goal to prove my words. Thus, i took my rogue 11/AT 10/WIZ 6/SD3 guy and solo'd Balor. Used 5 healing pots and 4 uses of frost weapon wands. No other UMD used at all. So, when we say "someone solo'd x and y", just keep in mind, i solo'd Balor with a built which simply can't be powerbuild because of strict mechanical limitations. 48 AC, 38 AB fully buffed, 7 APR and 11d6 sneak attack.
No cold iron weapons + bless weapon. I had my ~50 dpg per SA reduced to 10. Took me 20 minutes.

[Steve]

I guess then it's not as much "nerf Warlock" as it is SUPER BUFF Balors! Lol. And everything else.

20 minutes, huh? Was it worth it?

[EasternCheesE]

I guess then it's not as much "nerf Warlock" as it is SUPER BUFF Balors! Lol. And everything else.

20 minutes, huh? Was it worth it?

Totally not. Though, i didn't lose gold. Though, it was literally second time i ever faced Balor myself ever, so my actions were super not optimal. Using cheap UMD stuff and more tactcis, i believe, i can do it in under 10 minutes with this build. Rogue 11/ AT 10/Wiz6/SD 3, once again, this can't be a powerbuild just from that class spread.
My idea was to point at "Something that can solo balor without dumping 20k in consumables is not enough to be considered powerbuild". So when we speak "Warlocks solo Balors", please, find you other argument. Something that can't be a powerbuild by it's design can do the same without even picking gear for that exact goal (having cold iron + bless weapon would let me kill it way faster on same build).

While, yet again, warlocks are very strong, the argument "Can solo X or Y" is simply not valid.
Just like i had it in some other warlock discussion, here it is:
What makes warlock look so strong?
1) Infinite access to AoE RTA/reflex blasts that deal around 100 dmg/round.
2) Infinite access to retributive invisibility that provides invis and 50% displacement
3) Infinite access to 150 hp version of premonition
4) Infinite haste
5) Access to medium mithral armors and, with investment, ability to use shield without ASF
6) In general, good synergy with almost every melee class due to hideous blow
7) Access to lvl 9 equivalent of shapeshifting spell that can be used starting from lvl 18
8) ability to spam restoration potions with having +9d6 blast damage with eldritch master (hellfire warlocks)
Any more?

Speaking of those, my totally not powerbuild PC (dies quickly to 5 cr 24-26 mobs easily fully buffed) has access (without single sacrifice) to 12 minutes of 2,3 (even longer and more depending on incomung damage),4 along with points that warlock doesn't have at all.

[Kitunenotsume]

rogue 11/AT 10/WIZ 6/SD3 guy and solo'd Balor. Used 5 healing pots and 4 uses of frost weapon wands. No other UMD used at all. So, when we say "someone solo'd x and y", just keep in mind, i solo'd Balor with a built which simply can't be powerbuild because of strict mechanical limitations. 48 AC, 38 AB fully buffed, 7 APR and 11d6 sneak attack.
No cold iron weapons + bless weapon. I had my ~50 dpg per SA reduced to 10. Took me 20 minutes.

I am suspect that anything with a 3 level dip into SD for HiPS is at the least a red-flag for a potential power-build, due to the strength of spamming untargetability.
Does the build work without abusing HiPS? If not, it may not be an indicative 'Mary Sue' build against which to compare.

[mrm3ntalist]

I guess then it's not as much "nerf Warlock" as it is SUPER BUFF Balors! Lol. And everything else.

20 minutes, huh? Was it worth it?

Totally not. Though, i didn't lose gold. Though, it was literally second time i ever faced Balor myself ever, so my actions were super not optimal. Using cheap UMD stuff and more tactcis, i believe, i can do it in under 10 minutes with this build. Rogue 11/ AT 10/Wiz6/SD 3, once again, this can't be a powerbuild just from that class spread.
My idea was to point at "Something that can solo balor without dumping 20k in consumables is not enough to be considered powerbuild". So when we speak "Warlocks solo Balors", please, find you other argument. Something that can't be a powerbuild by it's design can do the same without even picking gear for that exact goal (having cold iron + bless weapon would let me kill it way faster on same build).

While, yet again, warlocks are very strong, the argument "Can solo X or Y" is simply not valid.

You say this, with some valid reasoning - in my view - yet the nerfs keep on coming... What is more perplexing is that some spells for example have been nerfed, while at the same time other spells that are "abused" similarly regarding game mechanics, are not being touched.

[Steve]

What is more perplexing is that some spells for example have been nerfed, while at the same time other spells that are "abused" similarly regarding game mechanics, are not being touched.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, man!

You have a platform here on the forum to make proposals. It’s even free (well, not really free it you count the cost of having others pile on the hate… ).

[EasternCheesE]

rogue 11/AT 10/WIZ 6/SD3 guy and solo'd Balor. Used 5 healing pots and 4 uses of frost weapon wands. No other UMD used at all. So, when we say "someone solo'd x and y", just keep in mind, i solo'd Balor with a built which simply can't be powerbuild because of strict mechanical limitations. 48 AC, 38 AB fully buffed, 7 APR and 11d6 sneak attack.
No cold iron weapons + bless weapon. I had my ~50 dpg per SA reduced to 10. Took me 20 minutes.

I am suspect that anything with a 3 level dip into SD for HiPS is at the least a red-flag for a potential power-build, due to the strength of spamming untargetability.
Does the build work without abusing HiPS? If not, it may not be an indicative 'Mary Sue' build against which to compare.

Well, it's the only way to make sneak attacks viable while soloing without huge investment into bluff and 3 feats for feint. Using hips as much as possible can't be "abusing hips". And, after all, that Balor beat my PC sneak score with it's super spot on like 2-5th round each time, so didn't allow me to just heal and chill, so HIPS is simply a way to deal my full damage (most of which is still eaten by DR).
Hips is already limited with the fact you do only SA on your first flurry most of times. Without hips/hits or a tank to allow for backstabs, rogues lose most of their combat benefits.
And, speaking of that particular build, being fully buffed, he totally can die to 3-5 CR 26 mobs in a regular Oghrann lootrun if i lose concentration for a second.

Just, please, anyone playing CONlock, can you share the details on common PvE strategy? How many UMD is used to "go and solo everything"?
I still think that we see very optimized warlock builds with their UMD and gear already established that "roflstomp" balor and assume it's normal warlock power, but not time and efforts people put into building and gearing it properly.

So far, i myself like the proposition about repelling blast and we actually had an interesting way to limit it without super nerfs in discussion before (way before this thread was started), but it requires a dev to check if they can implement it.
As of hellfire, i raise all my warlock PCs hands to YES for flat damage instead of CON drain because:
1) While people keep saying "Oh, it will just make it shoot 10 times, drink heal pot, rinse and repeat". Ladies and gentlemen, you really think powerbuilders and those people sitting on millions can't count? They surely will do this in emergency or when it matters a lot. Same as any other PC will chug health pot not to die. But spending 1k for a minute of extra 9d6 damage with increased risk of dying, seriously? It's simply not worth it in all that "they go solo and loot server easily" paradygm.
2) Having no need to chug resto pots, my shifter warlock would be able to use hellfire while shifted. To me, it's good change even if he loses 30 hp a round with it (so, about 10 hellfire 9d6 in a row before just dying to it), cause it will allow me to put extra damage when i think it's needed and not doing it when i don't thing it's needed. Just more choice with consequence. Shifter warlock already can't use heal pots or resto pots, so that'd be straight option for them even at cost of reduced hellfire utility in general.
3) The whole idea that someone can have 9d6 damage more while losing no rounds (drinking potions is a free action) is weird.

[EasternCheesE]

I am suspect that anything with a 3 level dip into SD for HiPS is at the least a red-flag for a potential power-build, due to the strength of spamming untargetability.
Does the build work without abusing HiPS? If not, it may not be an indicative 'Mary Sue' build against which to compare.

Well, it's the only way to make sneak attacks viable while soloing without huge investment into bluff and 3 feats for feint. Using hips as much as possible can't be "abusing hips". And, after all, that Balor beat my PC sneak score with it's super spot on like 2-5th round each time, so didn't allow me to just heal and chill, so HIPS is simply a way to deal my full damage (most of which is still eaten by DR).
Hips is already limited with the fact you do only SA on your first flurry most of times. Without hips/hits or a tank to allow for backstabs, rogues lose most of their combat benefits.
And, speaking of that particular build, being fully buffed, he totally can die to 3-5 CR 26 mobs in a regular Oghrann lootrun if i lose concentration for a second.

Just, please, anyone playing CONlock, can you share the details on common PvE strategy? How many UMD is used to "go and solo everything"?
I still think that we see very optimized warlock builds with their UMD and gear already established that "roflstomp" balor and assume it's normal warlock power, but not time and efforts people put into building and gearing it properly.

So far, i myself like the proposition about repelling blast and we actually had an interesting way to limit it without super nerfs in discussion before (way before this thread was started), but it requires a dev to check if they can implement it.
As of hellfire, i raise all my warlock PCs hands to YES for flat damage instead of CON drain because:
1) While people keep saying "Oh, it will just make it shoot 10 times, drink heal pot, rinse and repeat". Ladies and gentlemen, you really think powerbuilders and those people sitting on millions can't count? They surely will do this in emergency or when it matters a lot. Same as any other PC will chug health pot not to die. But spending 1k for a minute of extra 9d6 damage with increased risk of dying, seriously? It's simply not worth it in all that "they go solo and loot server easily" paradygm.
2) Having no need to chug resto pots, my shifter warlock would be able to use hellfire while shifted. To me, it's good change even if he loses 30 hp a round with it (so, about 10 hellfire 9d6 in a row before just dying to it), cause it will allow me to put extra damage when i think it's needed and not doing it when i don't thing it's needed. Just more choice with consequence. Shifter warlock already can't use heal pots or resto pots, so that'd be straight option for them even at cost of reduced hellfire utility in general.
3) The whole idea that someone can have 9d6 damage more while losing no rounds (drinking potions is a free action) is weird.

We can't compare sneaking hips with warlocks. Sneakers have a very simple issue. They can only sneak you in first flurry unless you are fighting at least in pairs and they can really die fast if they don't kill you in one single hit and you play correctly those 6 seconds you can't hide again. That's why ethereal-hips phantom-assassin/SD combo is that strong. And if I recall correctly, with bows game struggles to calculate if they sneak or not, and for those who didn't know, ranged weapons can only sneak in a 20 foot radio, which is the same as darkvision, so if you don't know how to calculate it manually just toggle darkvision on and you'll know your range.

How do the CONlock builds work? Well, that's like everything. There are tactics for every class. It's like when you use a lvl 1 fighter. You get 2 attacks per round with your max AB, or like when you practise the tactic or the +6 AC from ICE with no AB cost when you learn to time it.

In this case, with CONlock Hellfire Warlock prays for summoning Koroboros or Avernus Chicken for tanking fully buffed while you play from far away with your 50% concealment and no SR blast while healing with restoration wand when you need to, and that's the most basic tactic to learn with that one. Then you have the haste or jump spell for invisibility tactic, etc...

Warlocks, specially constitution warlocks can get very high regeneration just by feats, so flat damage? Meh, they won't deal with it that bad when they can have around 500 HP and premonition so... Well... Kinda strong.

About shifted creatures, polymorphed wizards or sorcerers can't either use any of their spells or SLA. This is another theme but I'd add SLA to them like the epic animal druid shapes.

I'm just a dumb builder with zero creativity to create originals and that can only improve builds, and even with my many limitations, even I am capable of building a warlock that could do what my monk used to do with less consumables.

I saw an xbow hin who didn't use hips to kill Balor right today. Simple +4 xbow, cold iron bolts and haste boots. Shall we keep adding "you can't compare X strong build to Warlock, because <add reason there>"? But that's what you do in first place - you compare warlock to builds which you never mention, but when i give you example of a build, you say "you can't compare".
There was a list of propositions in this topic. Some are good, some are not going to address the Topicstarter's suggestion.
Outside of hellfire switching to plain dmg and nerfing Kaedrin (repelling etc) blasts (which won't make CONlocks even visibly weaker anyway), what else can be done without ruining warlock as class?

[mrm3ntalist]

What is more perplexing is that some spells for example have been nerfed, while at the same time other spells that are "abused" similarly regarding game mechanics, are not being touched.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, man!

You have a platform here on the forum to make proposals. It’s even free (well, not really free it you count the cost of having others pile on the hate… ).

Make proposals based on what? Since Luna left, there is no direction - not even an idea of direction - on what and how to go on about mechanics. Right now its a free for all, do what you like kind of thing. Because of that, we have the current situation where something is nerfed because it is too powerful and is being "abused", but similar things are left alone ie spell X and spell Y. The same thing when changes are made to make something more in line with pnp but then other changes that make no sense in pnp are implemented. Do not get me started in the lack of direction or guidelines about items...

The lack of direction, has degenerated the what you call platform to make proposals, to a vent place asking for nerfs after losing a pvp or seeing someone do something that you havent even tried to.

[Theodore01]

I'm just a dumb builder with zero creativity to create originals and that can only improve builds, and even with my many limitations, even I am capable of building a warlock that could do what my monk used to do with less consumables.

Then do it and don't ruin the fun for other players - only because a long overdue MotlD bug was fixed

[The Whistler]

Hidden: show

What is more perplexing is that some spells for example have been nerfed, while at the same time other spells that are "abused" similarly regarding game mechanics, are not being touched.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, man!

You have a platform here on the forum to make proposals. It’s even free (well, not really free it you count the cost of having others pile on the hate… ).

Make proposals based on what? Since Luna left, there is no direction - not even an idea of direction - on what and how to go on about mechanics. Right now its a free for all, do what you like kind of thing. Because of that, we have the current situation where something is nerfed because it is too powerful and is being "abused", but similar things are left alone ie spell X and spell Y. The same thing when changes are made to make something more in line with pnp but then other changes that make no sense in pnp are implemented. Do not get me started in the lack of direction or guidelines about items...

The lack of direction, has degenerated the what you call platform to make proposals, to a vent place asking for nerfs after losing a pvp or seeing someone do something that you havent even tried to.

Nail, head. I have a huge nerf thread fatigue from topics usually started by people who aren't very good at game mechanics or who are having a knee jerk reaction to something they recently saw happen in game that completely blew their mind. The thing is that most of the stuff people have been recently complaining about has been a staple of the server for many years with no incident and is only now coming to the forefront because of the 100% RCR period. It is really telling of the state of this game when people are no longer even pretending to be on a roleplaying server or when scripters are treated as infallible and given carte blanche to enact whatever class change they desire when they've reduced the server code to a jumbled mess that makes people crash all the time.