Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:58 am

DM Ghost wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:56 am

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:07 am I definitely agree, though - it would make things a lot more interesting if bosses were DM-possessed.

Unfortunately, possessing NPCs and casting spells, and even worse going into combat, causes massive server lag, and can crash it. Otherwise it would certainly be an interesting possibility.

Has this been tried since the recent upgrades to server stability? And if it's still a problem, can we do anything to fix it? I'd recommend talking to Ewe/Dae, since he's been doing a lot of working cleaning up the code to increase server stability.

I mean, I can try a stress test on it...

DM Ghost wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:10 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:58 am

DM Ghost wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:56 am Unfortunately, possessing NPCs and casting spells, and even worse going into combat, causes massive server lag, and can crash it. Otherwise it would certainly be an interesting possibility.

Has this been tried since the recent upgrades to server stability? And if it's still a problem, can we do anything to fix it? I'd recommend talking to Ewe/Dae, since he's been doing a lot of working cleaning up the code to increase server stability.

I mean, I can try a stress test on it...

I probably wouldn't like having the server crash on me a lot... but you know what I would like? Smart bosses! As far as I'm concerned, test away.

(Though maybe not without a little warning...)

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:07 am

DM Ghost wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:56 am

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:07 am I definitely agree, though - it would make things a lot more interesting if bosses were DM-possessed.

Unfortunately, possessing NPCs and casting spells, and even worse going into combat, causes massive server lag, and can crash it. Otherwise it would certainly be an interesting possibility.

Yeah, I mentioned that in the rest of the section you quoted.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:59 am

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:07 am
[*]PCs can permanently die, no takebacks. (This is an option I am reluctant to suggest, but I am equally reluctant to completely remove it off the table. IMO, such great losses should be telegraphed well in advance of the decision that causes them, or consent should be given in advance.)[/list]

Hard no, that's anti-RP

Make it that you lose your inventory, and if you really want to, you can have your sentimental items stripped of properties and given negative properties. You get to keep the item, but not use it.

For some reason, nobody likes "Item loss" but everyone suggests permadeath, while itemloss doesn't destroy RP.

Yeah, sure, item loss too. Good catch, I forgot to mention those as options. In either case, the key words here are telegraphing and consent. One or both should be present before making radical, irreversible changes to the character.

And at the risk of rehashing a years-old argument for the umpteenth time: You do not get to deny consent on anyone's behalf except your own, any more than the rest of us get to grant it on your behalf. Use the rules to shield Atria all you want, but do not assume everyone else views their characters as equally inviolable.

Problem with consent for things you cannot revoke and undo is that you can get forced to consent to things one way or another.

I more or less agree with the first couple posts. The server content isn't very enjoyable to play, unless maybe if you have a party, which may not always be available. And even if one is available, many characters might not even be able to contribute to the fights and are simply there to leech XP from the rich, well-geared, high Damage high AC martials, as mentioned before by others.

The culprit is largely that some playstyles are heavily discouraged by the prevalent design, and that enemies have crazy high HP and saves, making combat in solo/duoplay a drag where you slowly whittle down enemies for a pittance of XP. Unless you play one of those super builds.

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:12 am

DM Ghost wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:10 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:58 am

Has this been tried since the recent upgrades to server stability? And if it's still a problem, can we do anything to fix it? I'd recommend talking to Ewe/Dae, since he's been doing a lot of working cleaning up the code to increase server stability.

I mean, I can try a stress test on it...

I probably wouldn't like having the server crash on me a lot... but you know what I would like? Smart bosses! As far as I'm concerned, test away.

(Though maybe not without a little warning...)

Tested this right now on server north with only two-four people online. No lag. Very interesting! This opens up some interesting possibilities for us as DMs. Although I don't know if this is due to low population or not. So I may need to stress test with higher population at some point.

EDIT: No, it crashed after all. Nevermind...

DM Boo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:50 am Can I just put out here that it is really hard to create a good boss during a DM event, particularly when we are talking 25+'s. Every time I've done one, I've always felt unsatisfied with the results. Usually they die in 3 seconds, despite unbelievably high stats, at the hands of a few characters, while the vast majority of the other characters feel they aren't contributing much because they can do little against the high stats. That was my experience as well playerside, with a reasonably tanky character. It's an incredibly difficult encounter to get right. I'd like to hear people's thoughts about how we can better balance bosses, particularly in DM events, so the experience comes off as much better for those involved.

I'm gonna go out and state something I found myself, as a player and DM, to be surprisingly satisfactory and interesting as a conceptual idea.
Which is that a great encounter can be made without even having a boss fight at all. By using circumstances and especially a smart villain, if one has to have a central antagonist over a whole organization or such being active, to avoid any such showdowns, while still giving a satisfactory partial win to the Heroic Group/Dstardly villains in question.

An example for that would be the prior Orcus plot, actually. For all it is worth, the entire situation could have been resolved without making the Broodmothers overwhelmingly powerful bosses (though it was nonetheless fun!) by instead making them, say, be torn apart by Demons for not upholding their end of the deal after the heroic group(s) in some way thwarted such and made it impossible for them to uphold their pact.

Another, completely stolen from other media (though I can't remember any particular example off the top of my head) is the mastermind villain working through patsies and henchmen, who is a threat not through overwhelming physical or arcane power, but through his strategic approach and smarts in dealing with opposition.

These require the Heroes to also, most likely, move onward from the "Complete annihilation of any NPC in the vicinity" approach, to have someone to gather intel from, or even just cause by the time they get through the 20-30 Henchmen the old-fashioned way, the villain has already done did whatever he wanted to do and gotten away. Egads!

And of course, once the villain we may or may not have is finally faced down, you can apply any of the other ways of making it a pain to beat him still.
Go for the Baldur-approach, and make him only woundable through Mistletoe, for example. Or make him fight you with ten or so flunkies while he makes himself unassailable until they are beaten.
There is no end to the various ways to screw with players and subvert expectations in a way that ultimately, may still be just as satisfying despite not being a complete victory! We as players just have to be open to also starting to brain, if we aren't used to it yet during events, and maybe try to immerse and accept we can't be all-powerful and solve everything with enough smacks on the head of someone. And that we occasionally may even have to see where our characters lines to not cross are, whereupon we may have to see what else we can do in the plot.
Just wanted to bring that in, from my small vantage. Hope I am not derailing too hard!



In regards to the Server difficulty (to get back to the point of the thread, I think) I have always found myself making suboptimal builds, and getting through life comparatively fine anyways. My first main was a DC Spellcaster with focus on Instakills, and despite a -lot- of Bosses making me useless in that, I was middlingly tolerable in melee fighting and during some events, managed to wipe out a significant amount of opposition anyways. So my experience seems to quite vitally differ from the majority, and I would declare myself an outlier unless others speak up in the same vein.

And to all the DMs active, given the somewhat negative tone of the prior thread that was locketh before this one: I think I have had all of two negative experiences at all in my entire few years on this server with you lot in particular, and am perpetually surprised that so many volunteer for this nuts-o workload still, despite the crazy levels of middling management and such I have heard of before. So just wanted to give you a thanks from a soon-to-be-leaving player cause when I -did- have DM plots, for the most part, I found them enjoyable and interesting, even if I was a pest during some maybe.

So much for my few cents!

Ewe wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:31 pmWhich part is specifically difficult? Can you summarize in a paragraph? I don't have time to read entire novels on the subject.

The difficulty of the server arises from the fact that you need to make a character of particular type to find any real success in here. As it was said by others, you basically need to build for high physical damage output, AC, saves, HP pool, and several immunities. Once you do build your character around these requirements, the difficulty disappears, but if you do not, then the difficulty simply persists until you either give up, or RCR your character into something that meets these requirements. Role-play builds are no longer feasible on this server.

And I guess I could make a short list of some points of contention:

• South of Friendly Arm Inn you have Bombardier beetles that have two to three casts of cone of acid that can deal up to 30~ damage per use. Near the initial spawn point, several of them can spawn at once, and if some player persists in the area and others run through, you can meet quite a horde of them. It is not an issue for any high level character with HP pool to soak up the damage, but a lower level character can get fugued relatively fast. Similar pattern exists with majority of mob casters, they just have a considerable pool of hostile spells to unload, and they can spawn in groups one after another. Thus they will simply deal damage that you will not be able to shake off unless you can fork out that 100k+ for a cloak that comes with 32 Spell Resistance. Gnoll cave with shamans and occultists. Goblin Crusaders with Magic Missile spam. Mephits near the abandoned temple north of Beregost. Etc, etc.
• Another point contention are the mobs with save or die spells, either literally or just in practice. From the top of my head, I could mention the Basilisks on the surface and the Mindflayers in the underdark. Both of these mobs require Steadfast Determination feat and sufficient saves not be killed the moment you enter the area. Basilisks turn your character into stone, which means you can only wait for your character to perish. The mind blasts of the Mindflayers will paralyze your character, and then you will simply have to wait for your character to die. I will not enter either of these areas until I know that my character can either meet or beat those DC checks, unbuffed, which means that areas of otherwise appropriate CR do not exist in practice for your character.
• And sometimes you will just encounter mobs with such high AC that you have no choice but to wait several minutes as your character slowly whittles down their HP. Glowing and Baleful Spiders in the Kro's Labyrinth spring to my mind, which if my memory serves have high dexterity based AC that could be overcome stealth character, but if you are not one yourself... or in a party... There is nothing much you can do aside from just picking a book to read, and hope you gain more levels faster to increase your AB. And if we stick to Underdark, you have the low CR displacer beasts, which force you to pick Blindfight as early as possible, and if we have look at the Stone Spear Adepts with their Improved Mage Armor, Shield, etc... if they manage to cast those spells, you will need to be able to beat AC of 35~ to even land a hit. It is a lot of AC to beat for CR9 area. Oh, and they can cast Bigby 5 too to give you a -10 debuff to AB. In other words, good luck landing a hit with anything that isn't a natural 20.

Anyhow, I do not recall the server statistics from the top of my head, but I would put my money that Anointed Knights and Warrior of Darkness are some of the most commonly taken PRCs for non-magical characters. After all, just four levels of either class grants you, Tumble for extra AC, Spellcraft for bonus saves against spells, Heal to heal with Healing Kits, high Will saves progression, extra point of Fire Damage regardless of your weapon, free Blindfight and Toughness feats of which the latter is required for Steadfast Determination, at the cost of one feat, Iron Will, which also boosts up your will saves. The four level dip is quite literally a no-brainer, and if you go for seven levels, you can wear a Mithral Full Plate and get the DR you would get from wearing an Adamantine Full Plate. If you go for full ten levels, you get two bonus feats which you can spend for Epic Ability Score increases, which allows you to pick bunch of other PRCs as well for even greater power without technically loosing the Epic Bonus feats you would have had as a single base class character. Very few players bother to role play pouring oils or preparing alchemical solutions as the anointed knight, or practicing black magic as the Warrior of Darkess, because these PRCs are most commonly taken for no other reason than to overcome the mechanical necessities of the server content. Oh and as a disclaimer, this is not an insult towards anyone, it is just how it is.

Ewe wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:31 pmMost of the feedback I received was that the leveling experience was fairly easy, but tedious. This is the first time I'm really hearing anyone say the server is too difficult.

It is not so for me, it used to be a regular occurrence over at the tips and tricks section of these forums. New players just got fed up to being fugued, not knowing what to do, etc, and so they would ask for build advice, and general advice, if they did not leave the server behind outright.

There is a difficulty bar a player simply has to overcome in order to find success, or struggle by tooth and nail for, and most people end up trying to overcome the difficulty bar instead of trying to scrape by beneath it. Thus, the areas of the server force you to optimize your build, to specialize and to join the ranks of those 'demi-gods' that have slaughtered thousand demons and armies of undead. Which, means that whenever an event transpires, the end boss fights never seem to satisfy anyone -- not the dungeon masters, not the players...

Thus, the suggestion to add 'easy mode areas' -- so that wizard could actually kill something with that magic missile, instead of having to cast 3-5 to just kill one goblin in the abandoned mines north of Beregost. As for clerics, they would not have to spend a minute or so buffing up before rushing into battle. And most importantly, weird role-play builds could actually do something other than logging in once a week to run some of weekly quests to slowly level up.

I mean, "This game is difficult until I learn the game" can be said about any game?

I think the claims about having to build in a very specific way to "find any success" are exaggerated. It's simply not the case that you need to be hyper optimized. And for people trying to play a caster blaster in a D&D game with a rest system and not a spell point system, I'm sorry but that's D&D folks.

With things like Darius HP gear, no item level restrictions, and veterans tossing CL 30 buffs on people the low level game play is probably too easy.

Does our content need some changes? Probably, but I'd argue it's not because it's "too difficult" but rather because it all seems too similar. Not enough variety.


Edit: Last time I saw the stats Weapon Master, Shadow Dancer, and Assassin were each taken more than the Warrior of Darkness and Anointed Knight combined.

Edit2: Wizard is like some of the easiest leveling I've ever done in my life. You buy some Darius gear and have 51 hp at level 1, and you can buy some summoning scrolls at Thayan shop that will carry you all the way through. You don't even need a group.

Ewe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:35 am Probably, but I'd argue it's not because it's "too difficult" but rather because it all seems too similar. Not enough variety.

This is definitely part of the problem, particularly with caster mobs. For whatever reason, it seems like 90% of them are sorcerers, and each type of casting monster all have the same memorized spells... or are those goblins north of Beregost all just wizards with their level 1 book entirely slotted with magic missiles? Caster mobs definitely seem to have a wider of variety of spells they use as they move up their books.

Whatever the case, is there any way to make it so that, when they spawn, their spell book is randomized? Or maybe 5 or 6 preset spellbooks could be made for each monster type? At least something that varies beyond *skeletal mage casts mage armor, mirror image, stoneskin, magic missile 7 times*... or, in the case of rogues, *skeletal mage casts fear, then magic missile 7 times while the rogue panic runs around randomly* (lol).

Snarfy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:01 pm

Ewe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:35 am Probably, but I'd argue it's not because it's "too difficult" but rather because it all seems too similar. Not enough variety.

This is definitely part of the problem, particularly with caster mobs. For whatever reason, it seems like 90% of them are sorcerers, and each type of casting monster all have the same memorized spells... or are those goblins north of Beregost all just wizards with their level 1 book entirely slotted with magic missiles? Caster mobs definitely seem to have a wider of variety of spells they use as they move up their books.

Whatever the case, is there any way to make it so that, when they spawn, their spell book is randomized? Or maybe 5 or 6 preset spellbooks could be made for each monster type? At least something that varies beyond *skeletal mage casts mage armor, mirror image, stoneskin, magic missile 7 times*... or, in the case of rogues, *skeletal mage casts fear, then magic missile 7 times while the rogue panic runs around randomly* (lol).

I am still salty about that one Mohrg who kept me on the ground for like a minute or two by spamming Balagarn's Iron Horn. While I was grounded, it also dispelled and then hit me with a Confusion.

This wasn't a boss mob, just one of like every third spawn. And has immense DR.

Ewe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:35 am I mean, "This game is difficult until I learn the game" can be said about any game?

I think the claims about having to build in a very specific way to "find any success" are exaggerated. It's simply not the case that you need to be hyper optimized. And for people trying to play a caster blaster in a D&D game with a rest system and not a spell point system, I'm sorry but that's D&D folks.

With things like Darius HP gear, no item level restrictions, and veterans tossing CL 30 buffs on people the low level game play is probably too easy.

Does our content need some changes? Probably, but I'd argue it's not because it's "too difficult" but rather because it all seems too similar. Not enough variety.


Edit: Last time I saw the stats Weapon Master, Shadow Dancer, and Assassin were each taken more than the Warrior of Darkness and Anointed Knight combined.

Edit2: Wizard is like some of the easiest leveling I've ever done in my life. You buy some Darius gear and have 51 hp at level 1, and you can buy some summoning scrolls at Thayan shop that will carry you all the way through. You don't even need a group.

Well, thanks for advice, now I know more. But here's the thing:

What if I play ascetic character that doesn't spend money on themselves, but instead donates everything to charity the first opportunity found?
What if my character doesn't want to financially support oppressive slaver empire?

The argument was that the need for mechanical power stumped any RP possibilities, and your argument reads as "Just ignore any RP restrictions, accept veterans' CL30 buffs and mule money over to your char and it's ezpz"

Another note - I don't need to be hyper optimized to get to lvl 30, true. But I need to be hyper optimized to get to lvl 30 before I lose my mind. Levelling in epics is just not fun - it takes much longer to get levels, and without gaining levels I won't get a sense of progression. And without the sense of progression things will get dull rather quickly. The amount of XP you get doesn't increase with levels, which would at least be a sign for my lizard brain that all the leveling I did prior wasn't for nothing, I'm doing cooler things now (even if it's the same running-in-circles grind). Killing any level appropriate mob gets you the same XP, so I don't feel like killing yetis and frost giants is any bigger deal than killing bandits or rats.

Frankly, same goes for levelling in epics from RP XP. Yeah, I can get XP from sitting on a bench a writing a book, but I'm still not getting the sense that I'm any closer to level up (also, while this sort of RP can be fun for me, it's unfair to put other players in position where they have to do the same to level up).

And until I'm levelled up enough, I often can't participate in DM events with my character's friends, because if I do, I will put DM into this awkward situation where they have to balance the event around having 5 lvl30 characters and 1 lvl20 tagalong. Or I'm gonna put other players into awkward situation where they have to babysit me. Which is often going to be a problem even if events are not about combat, skillchecks DCs will probably have to be slightly bloated to make it fun for lvl30 characters.

And even if I get to lvl30, how can I be sure that I'm not going to be underpowered compared to other players? It's sill very much possible, as was pointed out, to have lvl 30 character and still not being able to contribute to the party much. Which is going to happen from time to time regardless of server difficulty, but I think it would happen less often if epic levels were easier (or just faster) to get through - which would allow more players to have less optimized builds.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:13 pm I am still salty about that one Mohrg who kept me on the ground for like a minute or two by spamming Balagarn's Iron Horn. While I was grounded, it also dispelled and then hit me with a Confusion.

Yeah, bard caster mobs are especially annoying, and I'm pretty sure they all have the same spell selection, regardless of race. The ones in Ulgoths pirate caves are my least favorite: invis, summon creature, curse song, wash rinse repeat.

Now that I think about it, rather than randomized spell books, there would probably need to be a few alternate preset types of variants created. For example, in the case of the goblin crusaders north of Beregost, they could be split off into goblin invokers, enchanters, shamans, novices, and so on. Bard types are a whole other matter, seeing as how their spell selection is so limited.

Alonso wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:20 pm What if I play ascetic character that doesn't spend money on themselves, but instead donates everything to charity the first opportunity found?
What if my character doesn't want to financially support oppressive slaver empire?

Add pacifists to this list. Trying to level up without having to "hunt" leaves you with RP, and fishing(and maybe a few quests that don't involve killing). And if you struggle to find the former, or dislike the latter, you better be prepared to spend a year or two getting to 30.

DM Boo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:50 am I'd like to hear people's thoughts about how we can better balance bosses, particularly in DM events, so the experience comes off as much better for those involved.

One thing that DM Theo used to do for combat in events was a turn based style that utilized roleplay with skill and dice rolls. I enjoy this style of event immensely compared to stereotypical real time mosh pit combat. Unfortunately, it's very time consuming, and not at all feasible where parties over 5 or 6 people are concerned.

Alternatively, you might try something to the effect of telling the members of the group that they only have enough time to prepare three wards each, or limiting the use of magic in some other way? It gets to be a bit absurd when a party chain buffs for 5 minutes straight in an event, usually early on, and well before any danger or combat is remotely immanent.

Optimization isn't required.

This server is far easier than a lot of other servers.

If you choose purposefully some RP gimmick that you know makes your character weak, don't expect to roll all the content solo.

Leveling is long and tedious, yes. Optimization won't help speed it up that much. The thing that speeds it up the most is grouping up.

The immortal flag can be used until the DM feels that the punching bag has been beaten up enough. It doesn't have to just be a number's game.

I personally dont think any "boss" or NPC should have +99 saves or huge HP pools or immunity to death magic etc simply because some people could just walk up and kill it. If someone wants to do that, i say let them. People are always going to look for the easiest way to quickly clear a boss or dungeon for the loot who cares?

Keep all the stupidly high powered NPCs out of the game. the idea of "Balancing" such things is just a sure way to power creep to the point we are at now. What is the harm in letting people simply blow things up? People are already almighty gods of monster slaying its not going to make any difference.

And nobody goes in to a dungeon for the "Role play experience and immersion" So just. Let them be easy, the less time people spend farming the more time they spend role playing and the less power those monsters have the less reason people have to min max every stat. Sure some people will do it anyway but who cares?

Personally i have been in a total of 2 dungeons in 6 months or longer, mostly because its not worth the amount of effort it requires to actually kill the damn things, especially the higher level ones.