Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Steve wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:14 am
The thing is that even though a mob/PC is flat footed for an entire round, it doesn’t mean all the attacks will land. Not all mobs/PCs have high DEX AC to lose.

If you are playing a dedicated Feinter, please try and go solo some bosses, and tell me how well you did.

You still don't get it.

I'm not saying the problem with Feint is that it's always OP. I KNOW that it takes a HUGE investment in skill points and special gear to get it to work and that it's super hard to beat the DC on epic bosses because the bosses have high Spot and high AB. That's part of the problem.

Feint is like a bazooka with a trigger that's attached to a random number generator and has a pull weight of 20 lbs. I get that you saw the advantage of it, built a character around it, worked hard and bought the gear, and are happy with the result. Join the club. My main character got scrapped because of the duelist change, or rather, because of the method of the change. But it would be better for the majority of players, especially those taking invisible blade, if the feat were more accessible, reliable, easier to get working and less devastating when it does work. Something that does NOT require a massive investment in gear that's only good for one thing. Something that WILL work reliably on epic bosses, without all that gear, but won't be able to keep an opponent flat-footed for the entire combat.

ETA: Also, SOLOING isn't my biggest beef with the opponent being flat-footed. It's that you can keep an opponent flat-footed an entire combat by spamming the quickslot and your rogue buddies have all of their attacks be sneaks without bothering to hide.

Steve wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:17 am The DC for Feint is far from a sure success. When it does succeed, it’s great, and powerful, but DOES require and “all in” investment, which is the challenge. A challenge, because, investing all in on Feint in a Build plan and gear plan leaves glaring weaknesses, as the trade off. In both PvE and PvP.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 4:39 pm My original plan was this. It had to be scrapped because there are no means to make a mob flatfooted by code. This is why Feint changes were delayed. We have ways of adjusting it in the hardcode in the future but that will take time.

What if Feint, with it's flat-footing and super high dc vs bosses, etc, were left exactly as-is AND a new feat, called "Diversionary Tactic" or something that does something along the lines of my 1st post were created (ie extra damage but no flat-footing)... and the requirement for invisible blade were your choice of one of those two feats? (And the invis blade bluff skill mastery apply to both feats).

If you want to flat-foot your foe, you need massive investment in skill points and bluff gear. If you want to just do some extra damage, you can use the new feat instead without covering all your equipment slots in bluff gear.

Although, if possible to code, PCs should be able to use Concentration, Spot, or Will save, whichever is higher, to resist Feint. Feint in PVP could be devasting.

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:28 am You still don't get it.

I'm not saying the problem with Feint is that it's always OP. I KNOW that it takes a HUGE investment in skill points and special gear to get it to work and that it's super hard to beat the DC on epic bosses because the bosses have high Spot and high AB. That's part of the problem.

Feint is like a bazooka with a trigger that's attached to a random number generator and has a pull weight of 20 lbs. I get that you saw the advantage of it, built a character around it, worked hard and bought the gear, and are happy with the result. Join the club. My main character got scrapped because of the duelist change, or rather, because of the method of the change. But it would be better for the majority of players, especially those taking invisible blade, if the feat were more accessible, reliable, easier to get working and less devastating when it does work. Something that does NOT require a massive investment in gear that's only good for one thing. Something that WILL work reliably on epic bosses, without all that gear, but won't be able to keep an opponent flat-footed for the entire combat.

ETA: Also, SOLOING isn't my biggest beef with the opponent being flat-footed. It's that you can keep an opponent flat-footed an entire combat by spamming the quickslot and your rogue buddies have all of their attacks be sneaks without bothering to hide.

I think I do get it. I just disagree with you that there is a problem here, with Feint. It is a fun and powerful fighting style to invest in. As is.

If one part of the "problem" with Feint is the investment to make it work "reliably" because Bosses have high BAB and Spot skill, then...let's leave Feint alone and change the mobs, so that Feint is a fun and fantastic fighting style that does not require near-absolute commitment.

If the problem is with Invisible Blade AND Feint...well, I can't help you there. That is a personal issue on your part. My own Feinter does not have the IB PrC, nor does it even have TWF. You might even say that I built a "gimped" build, yet...I played this build up from Level 1 when I didn't even have great and epic Bluff gear, and I never had a problem with Feint being a benefit to melee combat.

If the Feint feat became "... more accessible, reliable, easier to get working and less devastating when it does work..." then...it's just less interesting, imho. I like having a very powerful feat that isn't totally reliable. That is what makes it fun to attempt to use!

I also don't think there is any problem with a group of PCs, like a bunch of Rogues, employing a very successful tactic of feinting and opponent and then, en masse, sneak attacking said opponent to death. That's both wicked and smart and you just have me a great idea for a new group!!!

As per your last post, having some alternative Feat that leaves Feint alone sounds great! Maybe the Devs think so as well, and can code something up for you.

Steve wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:54 pm I also don't think there is any problem with a group of PCs, like a bunch of Rogues, employing a very successful tactic of feinting and opponent and then, en masse, sneak attacking said opponent to death. That's both wicked and smart and you just have me a great idea for a new group!!!

thats pretty much how we rolled when i was still in the thieves guild

problem being for a group of rogues is unless someone can actually tank a bit it makes fighting hard if it goes past the first flurry, because then then mob is on you and your damage drops and if you cant take hits then you stealth out then its just on the next guy and their damage drops

so my hin being the tanky one with feint and epic dodge just sits there so everyone else could sneak, and when it was something that i could land a feint on i didnt lose damage in the process

so yea i have a hard time seeing anything wrong with feint also because its great -when- it works, and if not its just hips spamming ftw ...but if you have ever done it in a group then you would know how annoying it can get when a mob is being ping ponged by a group of slow moving rogues, takes much longer to do the same thing without feint

want a new custom feat? sure but dont mess with feint just because you dont like it for whatever reason, if you really dont like it that much just dont use it

only thing i can say that would be nice about a different feat is if spot is not a counter, because the issue with boss is that a high spot means you cant feint and you cant hide so you literally cant fight most bosses with just a group of rogues (also something we use to do which was killed from the change that gave all the bosses high spot)

Blackman D wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:12 pm if you really dont like it that much just dont use it

I would be delighted to not get the feat if it weren't required for invis blade.

And Feinting an opponent to death with a group of rogues is NOT the same as HiPSing it to death. As I'm getting tired of stating, a HiPS sneak attack is first flurry only, so max 5 sneaks with a very high BAB and Haste. Feint makes every attack that round a sneak, so 12 to 13. It's OP when you invest heavily in it and nearly useless if you don't.

Have you noticed that the only two people who think Feint is fine as-is are the only two people who invested heavily in it? I have. Rhifox has already stated that this feat has long been on their to-do list, so sooner or later it's gonna change in some way whether you and Steve like it or not.

So far I've been making suggestions based partly on what I think is possible to implement, but you wanna know what I wish it could be if anything were possible?

It WOULD flat-foot the target, but ONLY for 2 seconds (i.e., one flurry), not 6, and have a cooldown of 6 seconds instead of being able to just rapid-tap your quickslot the whole combat. The roll would be, as I stated, your bluff or perform, whichever is higher, vs the target's Concentration, Sense Motive, or Will save, whichever is highest. That's what I would like to see if it were possible to code that. That's what it should have always been, imo.

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:54 pm Feint makes every attack that round a sneak, so 12 to 13.

Have you noticed that the only two people who think Feint is fine as-is are the only two people who invested heavily in it? I have. Rhifox has already stated that this feat has long been on their to-do list, so sooner or later it's gonna change in some way whether you and Steve like it or not.

To the former quoted part: are you really sure? Because roguish BAB is low as f and likely the last flurry is a waste. One also needs to remember that a Feint costs 1 attack.

To the latter quoted part: Rhifox has changed or added a lot of things, and not all were appreciated, and some where reverted. Have you noticed that the only person with a real issue with Feint as is, is you? Because it is a requirement for IB which you dislike?

If Feint was OP, you’d see far more players using it.

I mean, I agree that Feint is situationally OP (in that reliably landing it is a terrifying thing, but reaching that threshold is intensely difficult and sometimes impossible), and doubly so with a party of rogues all benefitting from it.

The trouble is, the only sane ways of revamping it require some very heavy-handed changes to hardcoded mechanics, so this whole discussion is purely academic. (Incidentally why I haven't paid too much attention to it; I imagine there's some aspects of your proposals I'd want to change, and others I actually do agree with, but I'd have to read through it a lot more carefully than I am right now.)

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:22 am

If Feint was OP, you’d see far more players using it.

And you still don't get it. I get tired of repeating myself. It's not as simple as it's OP. It's OP when you invest in massive amounts of bluff gear, and near useless if you don't.

And there are TWO reasons I don't like it, not just because it's a requirement for IB. Also because it IS OP when you have a lot of bluff gear, that makes it less likely that the team will add gear that has both bluff and stealth for Create Diversion.

If I was the only person who had a problem with it, you'd see a lot more people using it.

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:43 pm

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:22 am

If Feint was OP, you’d see far more players using it.

And you still don't get it. I get tired of repeating myself. It's not as simple as it's OP. It's OP when you invest in massive amounts of bluff gear, and near useless if you don't.

And there are TWO reasons I don't like it, not just because it's a requirement for IB. Also because it IS OP when you have a lot of bluff gear, that makes it less likely that the team will add gear that has both bluff and stealth for Create Diversion.

If I was the only person who had a problem with it, you'd see a lot more people using it.

If you get tired of repeating yourself, then don’t! Lol.

People have problems making a commitment. Feint is a commitment. HiPS is also near useless if you don’t invest in H/MS. Spellcasting is near useless unless you invest in CL. Should I go on?

You keep explaining how Feint doesn’t work FOR YOU. It works for others, and quite well I might add, so…should it be changed for you?

No. That’s why I hope Staff can script a new Feat, like you’ve suggested, that would make YOUR play style more enjoyable for you.

My problem isn't simply because it doesn't fit my play style, and Feint requires a LOT more than investment in gear and skill points. It also requires sneak attack to be useful, unlike HiPS, which is useful for getting out of scrapes and hitting spellcasters before they buff up even if you have little to no sneak dice.

My problem with it is, as I've already stated, multiple things. Aside from all that I've already put in, it's just an ugly and cludgy mechanic. You roll your bluff versus the opponent's attack bonus AND spot? One stat versus two? Unbalanced, which is why you need to get every available bluff item to get it to work. Then it flat-foots the target for the ENTIRE round? Must be a pretty slow-witted opponent if they're disoriented for a full 6 seconds. When you HiPS someone they're only flat-footed for 1/3rd that time.

It's just awful all around unless someone, like you, devotes an entire build to it. And then it's just too much.

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:22 am Have you noticed that the only person with a real issue with Feint as is, is you?

Btw, I think you owe Rhifox and Whatever123 apologies for implying that they don't exist. They have both expressed misgivings with the feat as-is.

And me! I've expressed misgivings, tempered by the inability to correct them.

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:22 am To the former quoted part: are you really sure? Because roguish BAB is low as f and likely the last flurry is a waste. One also needs to remember that a Feint costs 1 attack.

as an example to this, my hin IB with PTWF and 10 attacks gets 4 attacks in her first flurry, if i want to actually land feint it needs to be the 5th hit then after that maybe 2 will hit and the rest are misses

then after that just bc its a bit hard to actually time, feint becomes the first attack so you can hit with everything after which still only means about 6 hits vs 4 out of 10, so that last flurry is just not there

but now that i dont need to hide to sustain SA im giving up my best hit (one of... ptwf) to not have to hide

so yea, it is about the same as spamming hips its just more convenient not to have keep backing off if you dont need to

and i cant even say i have a high investment into it aside from max ranks and a couple of pieces of gear, her bluff is around 40 something? anything low or medium BAB tends to work well, anything high BAB is super rare; completely fine with that but its also why i just cant understand what problem you are having with it

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:54 pm It WOULD flat-foot the target, but ONLY for 2 seconds (i.e., one flurry), not 6, and have a cooldown of 6 seconds instead of being able to just rapid-tap your quickslot the whole combat. The roll would be, as I stated, your bluff or perform, whichever is higher, vs the target's Concentration, Sense Motive, or Will save, whichever is highest. That's what I would like to see if it were possible to code that. That's what it should have always been, imo.

problem with this being the timing, it would end up never working well on 2 secs, the actual combat timer is weird, the only true 6 sec rounds are for buffs, combat is weird because all attacks happen "in 6 secs" just not 6 actual seconds so depending on who is all involved in the fight you may end up messing up someones timing and it will appear to be glitchy, which is why some of the spells that were half a round had to be extended to a round and a half because they were not working

ultimately tho the combat timer is not real time, its turn based with everyones turn being 1 round, thats why it seems to linger at times

also the only real time timers are minutes and seconds, hours is actually 15 mins which was changed because 10 min/lvl spells were longer duration than hr/lvl because the original timer for hour was only 5 minutes, but actual combat timer is weird and is not real time