Feint

[Flatted Fifth]

*** OP DELETED, NEW SUGGESTION ***


Proposal: Replace Feint with a new feat that works as follows:

Use: Selected vs current target, cannot be used with a ranged weapon
Cooldown: 18 seconds

First the feat checks if the target has an intelligence score of 1 or lower. If it does, the feat automaticall fails and you get a server message
"Feint cannot be used on thoughtless creatures."

If the target has an Int of 2 or higher you roll an opposed roll against your target. You roll your Bluff or Perform, whichever is higher, to distract your opponent.
The target rolls Concentration, Sense Motive, or Will save, whichever is highest, to avoid being distracted.

If you fail, nothing happens.
If successful, you get 1 free sneak attack. The target may make a reflex save vs a dc of your BAB to take half damage

ETA: Also, Invisible Blade should grant Feint, not require it.

[Blackman D]

of the 3 sneaks i have 2 of them are melee and i use feint on both of them, there is nothing wrong with how it works and it make it any more possible to land would be bad given that a successful feint is a death sentence, we are talking full sneak attack on every attack for the rest of the round

it would be pretty OP, only thing that really stops it is the fact that it is so easily countered

[Flatted Fifth]

So how often is it working for you against epic bosses? Cause so far for me it hasn't worked once on any of them. Just against enemies I don't need it for.

And I did mention it should have a cooldown to keep it from being op

[Rhifox]

We have been considering changes to Feint and some were originally intended to go in with the combat update, but due to the ability's hardcoded nature we weren't able to do it at the time.

It's still on my radar though and I'd like to come back to it at some point.

[Flatted Fifth]

We have been considering changes to Feint and some were originally intended to go in with the combat update, but due to the ability's hardcoded nature we weren't able to do it at the time.

It's still on my radar though and I'd like to come back to it at some point.

I'm glad you agree that it needs tweaking. I made my 100% rcr from duelist an invis blade with max bluff and skill focus bluff to try it out and I'm very disappointed. It's awful when fighting anything I'd actually need it for, and the fact that invis Blade requires it kinda makes Invis Blade a bit rubbish, too. 4 feat requirements is bad enough, even worse when one is awful at high lvls (it worked great on another char, but that one was low lvl. Kobolds don't have much spot skill, apparently).

Any chance you could make Invis Blade grant Feint at Invis Blade lvl 1 instead of requiring it? Keep the other reqs for IB the same (TWF, weap focus in a tiny blade, and 8 bluff)?

ETA:
OH, hey, another thought:

While I do think Feint should work a lot more reliably at high levels if you've spent the points on Bluff, I do NOT want it to be an instant death sentence for the opponent. I think it should not only have a cooldown of 12 seconds, but I think it should ALSO do HALF sneak damage because catching someone who is facing you off-guard for an instant isn't going to give you the same kind of time to line up your shot as when you're behind or flanking or unseen.

You roll 1d20 + your Bluff.
If the target opponent is an NPC it rolls 1d20 + either their BAB, or their Sense Motive, or 1/2 their Spot**, whichever of the three is highest.
If the target opponent is an PC they roll 1d20 + either their BAB +3, or their Sense Motive, or their Spot, whichever of the three is highest.
If you roll lower, the feint failed. Nothing happens.
If you roll higher, they are HALF flat-footed for 1 round***(see below). They are not as off guard as if you had snuck up on them. You deal 1/2 your sneak attack damage, and any effects that trigger on sneak attack like Death Attack stun or Rogue Crippling Strike or Invisible Blade Bleeding Wound are triggered. Bleeding Wound damage is not halved. That's what makes the PrC special.








** NPCs get half spot because way too many of them have spot way too high. PCs get full spot. Feint shouldn't become the ultimate PVP power move.

**I know half-flat-footed is not a thing. If possible, have the script calculate what their AC would be if they were flat-footed and impose a 1 round Dodge ac penalty equal to half of the difference. Example: Enemy has 50 AC, of which 10 is Dodge (3 dex, 3 acrobatics, and 4 magic boots). Flat Footed AC would therefore be 40, so a one round penalty of -5 Dodge AC is imposed ( (50-40) / 2 = 5 )

[Blackman D]

you do realize you just suggested to also drop sneak damage down to a quarter on crit immune right?

[Flatted Fifth]

you do realize you just suggested to also drop sneak damage down to a quarter on crit immune right?

Yes. I am perfectly aware. The way Feint is now it's instant kill vs low lvl enemies and doesn't work AT ALL on epic bosses because the DC of their Spot + AB makes an impossible number, even with skill focus bluff, heroism, and a racial bonus. So I'd much rather have a feat I can rely upon to do some damage against most things most of the time than one that does massive damage to opponents so weak I don't need the help and none at all when I really need it, and I don't think it should effectively double the number of sneak attacks we get. Catching the opponent slightly off-balance for a mere moment is not the same as catching someone unaware of your position and therefore being unable to guard their vital organs. There's a big difference.

It should be half sneak attack damage, and have a cooldown of 12 seconds. Maybe even 30 seconds. It's not meant to replace a HiPS/SA combo, it's meant to add to it every few rounds. It shouldn't be an instant kill move, but it should fricking WORK most of the time when you've invested a lot in Bluff.

[Flatted Fifth]

OP updated with new proposal.

[Steve]

I have a lvl 27 dedicated-to-Feint toon. I’ve never had problems, because I invested in feats and gear to make Feint work reliably. I like how it uses SA dmg, when it works. It gives my character a unique fighting style.

The ONLY thing I would want changed, is that the Bluff counter is not Spot, but as suggested here, the higher of Sense Motive or Reflex Save + d20.

[Flatted Fifth]

I have a lvl 27 dedicated-to-Feint toon. I’ve never had problems, because I invested in feats and gear to make Feint work reliably. I like how it uses SA dmg, when it works. It gives my character a unique fighting style.

The ONLY thing I would want changed, is that the Bluff counter is not Spot, but as suggested here, the higher of Sense Motive or Reflex Save + d20.

What's your bluff score, if you don't mind my asking, and have you tried it against the Earth Elemental Guardian or Green Dragon?

And unfortunately it's not possible to change Feint, or so I'm told. They'd have to replace it with a custom feat and it may not be possible to actually make the opponent flat-footed with a custom feat.

[Steve]

Right now, fully geared and with Buffs, it reaches 71. My aim that I calculated is possible for my particular toon is 78, once he reaches lvl 30 and I acquire the missing Gear pieces.

Obviously, getting to 83 Bluff would be awesome, but I don’t think either the RIG or DMs are that generous. Lol.

With other builds, getting to 83 or higher is far easier, but I went my way. And empirically, I’ve had little trouble feinting my way to lvl 27.

But I also don’t expect that Feint would be a guarantee on bosses (so I could solo them). My SA total still works when flanking, so I’d be about bringing a friend to kill bosses.

Like…a Paladin.

[Blackman D]

It's not meant to replace a HiPS/SA combo

...except thats exactly what feint is for

if you cant land feint then you are doing hit and runs which does get annoying, if you can land feint then they just die faster

[Flatted Fifth]

It's not meant to replace a HiPS/SA combo

...except thats exactly what feint is for

if you cant land feint then you are doing hit and runs which does get annoying, if you can land feint then they just die faster

No, it isn't. Only Steve is using it for a replacement because he's got no stealth gear and all the bluff gear. Cool idea, but the result as-is is overpowered because there's no cooldown. He can just Sneak Attack every hit in combat and sneak attack was never meant for that. How would you like to be against Steve in PvP?

This is another reason it needs a change. If you have enough stealth gear on to reliable hide you don't have room for enough bluff gear. If you forego stealth altogether and load up on bluff gear you can make every hit a Sneak. One way it's far too unreliable, the other way far too OP.

Although I admit this proposal isn't powerful ENOUGH for something you'd have to throw 30 skill points at, the idea needs work. Input. But as the feat currently stands it's not useful enough if you can't load every slot with bluff items and seriously OP if you can.

[Steve]

Using Feint does cost an attack. It’s much more powerful if you HiPS attack, then Feint in the second flurry, then HiPs attack, rinse and repeat.

Feint is also denied by the second most taken/buffed Skill, that being Spot. So yes, it’s an all-or-nothing investment for the build and for gear. Which makes it unique, as a style style, in my opinion.

And I wouldn’t call my Feint build a PvP King. By choosing to go all in for Feint success, the build has glaring mechanical weakspots. Well..not soooo bad.

I choose to RP and experience a Feinter for fun, not because I thought it would be some powerhouse.

[Flatted Fifth]

Using Feint does cost an attack. It’s much more powerful if you HiPS attack, then Feint in the second flurry, then HiPs attack, rinse and repeat.

Feint is also denied by the second most taken/buffed Skill, that being Spot. So yes, it’s an all-or-nothing investment for the build and for gear. Which makes it ubiquitous, in my opinion.

And I wouldn’t call my Feint build a PvP King. By choosing to go all in for Feint success, the build has glaring mechanical weakspots. Well..not soooo bad.

I choose to RP and experience a Feinter for fun, not because I thought it would be some powerhouse.

That's exactly my problem with it. If you invest in the feat and 33 points of bluff it's not useful enough against tough opponents unless you go all out on bluff gear, and then it becomes too easy to spam sneak attacks. I'm not saying you're a powergamer, I'm saying the feat could be a lot better. Right now, because it makes the opponent flat-footed, if you party with a couple other assassins or rogues, they can pretty much sneak attack the whole combat because being flat-footed grants sneak attacks to EVERYONE against that target.

Feint should not take an attack, it should give 1 (and only 1) free sneak attack for the person who performed the Feint, and only that person. Not the whole party. And it should have an appropriate cooldown.