The Bladesinger PRC

[Sun Wukong]

What of a caster with levels of Frostmage against the Balor? Piercing Cold, anyone?

[chad878262]

How would this be any different with a Bladesinger/Frostmage than it would for any other Frostmage?

[Sun Wukong]

Wizard 5/Arcane Scholar 5/Bladesinger 10/Frostmage 10, you get some empowered cold spells that should ignore any cold damage resistance or immunity.

Level 1: Lesser Orb of Cold - 9d8 = 40.5~
Level 2: Empowered Lesser Orb of Cold - 9d8*1.5 = 60~
Level 3:
Level 4: Maximized Lesser Orb of Cold - 9d8 = 72
Level 5: Empowered Orb of Cold - 18d6*1.5 = 94.5~
Level 6: Empowered Ice Storm (3d6 + 12d6)*1.5 = 63~ (Cold only)
Level 7: Maximized Orb of Cold - 18d6 = 108
Level 8: Polar Ray - 30d6 = 105~
Level 9: Empowered Polar Ray - 30d6*1.5 = 157~

How much damage would these things amount to? (And you can use easily bought scrolls to summon and buff a Mord bait.)

[BigJ]

Glad I made you smile Chad, I felt a bit guilty with my mess-up on your PC's. Back when I was researching how to play my first drow I did a forum search for Shevarash re potential threats. Read your journal, and some Night Hunters stuff. They still about?

Dang, so close! Is that Avasculate thing a recent change? Is that why no staff have mentioned it untill now?

Probably makes sence tbh if it was changed, felt a bit cheesy casting all those avasculates on one target.

So, swapping those Avasculates for 2 x Emp Polar Rays (312) and 4 x EMP IGMS (501), bringing my total blasting damage (including that Vamp feast swapped in for heal, is that 20% as well?) to nearly

4787hp (with no saves for reduced damage, and swap element depending on target).

I would probably stick with cold or acid, the force/magic damage spells are only 15d6 instead of 18d6, so doesn't make much difference whether I use those or cold/acid and lose just 10 damage per orb spell.

Not bad for a high ac / ab wizard (for a wizard Valefort, for a wizard ). I suppose I should also swap in a Tensers for +8 ab, for when the spells run out.

Shame about that magic damage DR (so close!), what its proper name? (resistance/immunity/DR?).
Do all the bosses have that magic immunity/resist/dr thing or just the Balor?

Are you sure it applies to conjured elemental magic as I do not see any reduction on M's Flame Arrow screenshot, just the DR10 applying. And what's with that Crit Threat roll on that screenshot, its weird right? If its a BG thing then I need to adjust the number of critical hits I expected, as on most attacks I assumed it would need a double 20 to hit/confirm, except for first two swings in flurry.

Incidentally, I caved to the Melee caster focus and put one up.

Bladesinger Melee

Standard STR sorc

The Bladesinger has no ECL, better AC (unless you use that towershield in which case the BS has better AB and damage. Note: The Sorc only has 40ab, or 39? (+11 STR?) if it uses that Towershield, just 1/2 more than my Bladesinger Blaster and almost the same damage, just saying). Bladesinger has a more versatile spellbook with higher casting stat, although just filling up on defensive spells and summon + its buffs. Plus that nifty feature of imbuing its sword with a spell, before the fight starts (Mords? Avasculate? Some other? Depends on target I guess), and also still has Vamp feast! .

Its a powerful PrC whatever way you cut it, which I don't mind if its for balancing the good / evil thing. I just don't comprehend the denial.

BigJ

[Invoker]

Dang, so close! Is that Avasculate thing a recent change? Is that why no staff have mentioned it untill now?

Probably makes sence tbh if it was changed, felt a bit cheesy casting all those avasculates on one target.

I have killed the Balor hundreds of times, as it's part of my friends' "magical mystery tour" around the server. Avasculate never did Jack against it. Since...at least 2011.

So, swapping those Avasculates for 2 x Emp Polar Rays (312) and 4 x EMP IGMS (501), bringing my total blasting damage (including that Vamp feast swapped in for heal, is that 20% as well?) to nearly

4787hp (with no saves for reduced damage, and swap element depending on target).

No. Vampiric Feast has an extremely reduced effect on the Balor, which is also immune to Death magic (some 50+ Fort Save & Steadfast). A Vampiric Feast nets you around 1000 dmg, and that if you OPEN with it.

Furthermore, you seem to think the engine will let you hit systematically all your RTAs with the low AB forced on you by ASoC levels, you forget to factor in the Balor's resistances, you want to use IGMSs on it even though they are definitely suboptimal (because he is either alone, or with two giants, and he has 25% immunity to magic dmg, not to mention just how high the spell slot circle you'll waste is...), and you forget to factor in his regeneration as well.

4787hp? By the time you have exhausted ALL your spells, you'll be lucky to have done half of that. It would be much more certain if you did what Simian suggests, and go Frostmage, but even that is almost invariably insufficient to blast it dead (AsoC + FM will give you a very low AB to land your RTAs. You're going to miss one in four, at least): even if it remains with 200 HP, it will destroy you.

I would probably stick with cold or acid, the force/magic damage spells are only 15d6 instead of 18d6, so doesn't make much difference whether I use those or cold/acid and lose just 10 damage per orb spell.

Sure, which spells? Basically NO acid spell in an arcanist's arsenal is truly effective against the Balor. Absolutely correct on force spells, and as far as orbs are concerned...read above.

Not bad for a high ac / ab wizard (for a wizard Valefort, for a wizard ). I suppose I should also swap in a Tensers for +8 ab, for when the spells run out.

Don't bother: it'll beat you into a pulp the moment you can't refresh displacement and mirror images, unless you are a Pale Master or an Armored Caster.

Its a powerful PrC whatever way you cut it, which I don't mind if its for balancing the good / evil thing. I just don't comprehend the denial.

BigJ

I'm not sure, I can only assume here. It could be the "denial" comes from the fact you keep stating wrong things and theorycrafting with wrong data, invalidating everything you base the above statement on.

No offense meant.

Happy Rping and enjoy the server!

[Nachti]

Balor can always be nerfed if deemed overpowered

[Invoker]

Balor can always be nerfed if deemed overpowered

Why would the Balor be deemed overpowered? I stated at the beginning of my post I have killed it hundreds of times. That seems counter-intuitive...

[Nachti]

Btw, why has bladesinger a deity requirement?

[BigJ]

Again, people are ignoring the math, skipping over what I have said or are just misreading what I write.

I have killed the Balor hundreds of times, as it's part of my friends' "magical mystery tour" around the server. Avasculate never did Jack against it. Since...at least 2011.

I ASKED about what Avasculate did in this thread, then used staff response/calculations, staff also mentioned using meta-magic with avasulate. Staff mentioned using only 6 Avasulates. If staff were wrong then thats fine, it happens. But THAT'S why I went down that route initially.

No. Vampiric Feast has an extremely reduced effect on the Balor, which is also immune to Death magic (some 50+ Fort Save & Steadfast). A Vampiric Feast nets you around 1000 dmg, and that if you OPEN with it.

Why No? Why on earth wouldn't you open with it? And its extremely reduced effect is 20% damage (Not confirmed yet, is it 20%?) instead of 50%. THATS why a added 1000 to the total hp.

Math (from eariler post): 2974 + 813 (swapped in spells for Avas) + 1000 (vamp feast) = 4787.

Furthermore, you seem to think the engine will let you hit systematically all your RTAs with the low AB forced on you by ASoC levels, you forget to factor in the Balor's resistances, you want to use IGMSs on it even though they are definitely suboptimal (because he is either alone, or with two giants, and he has 25% immunity to magic dmg, not to mention just how high the spell slot circle you'll waste is...), and you forget to factor in his regeneration as well.

Again, repeating, M's screenshot show him hitting the Balor with an RTA roll of 26. My bab is 37 (14 high bab levels). How do I miss exactly? As I stated to Valefort, I may roll a 1, but I can also roll a 20 for double damage.

IGMS - 24d6 to a single target, no saves for reduced damage. However, if you can up the damage output by replacing this spell please, do make a detailed suggestion.

25% Magic DR - I never missed this in my previous math. I did ask if all bosses have this (Ie UD Pit Fiend?) because if not I am doing all that damage.

4787hp? By the time you have exhausted ALL your spells, you'll be lucky to have done half of that.

Proof please. I have provided the math, whats your proof I only do half? Otherwise just another statement of words. To the Balor i lose 25%, plus 10 per orb spell. But what about other bosses without magic DR? Also, is it confirmed 'conjured' elemental magic (ie Orbs) is subject to this DR, as there is no reduction message on M's screenshot, just the dr 10. The wiki states Orb spells bypass any percentage of magic immunity.

It would be much more certain if you did what Simian suggests, and go Frostmage, but even that is almost invariably insufficient to blast it dead (AsoC + FM will give you a very low AB to land your RTAs. You're going to miss one in four, at least): even if it remains with 200 HP, it will destroy you.

See above, I do not have very low AB. Miss one in four? How? And why do I need Frost Mage just because of 10 dr? (see below).

Sure, which spells? Basically NO acid spell in an arcanist's arsenal is truly effective against the Balor. Absolutely correct on force spells, and as far as orbs are concerned...read above.

Orbs, Orbs, orbs! I am a wizard so I can switch them to whatever damage type I like.

Ie. Maximised Cold Orb (144 - 10 = 134). Empowered Cold Orb (125 - 10 = 115). That's using cold.

Don't bother: it'll beat you into a pulp the moment you can't refresh displacement and mirror images, unless you are a Pale Master or an Armored Caster.

Math please. My math shows in 3 mins the Balor hits me just 16 times (leaving 14 MI's still). Ext Displacement last almost 6 mins.

More Math (I assume you mean auto-still mage):

Armored Casted: +8 MFP + 3 Dex + 8 Towershield = 19 (-2ab. 1 handed damage only. Costs 4 feats, importantly 3 of them are epic)
Bladesinger: +6 MCM + 4 Dex +5 INT +4 Shield Spell = 19 (No ab loss, 2h damage, can add combat insight if you want to melee with those extra epic feats to spend)

So err, there like the same? Cool, guess my Bladesinger falls into that 'Unless' category with armoured mage.

I'm not sure, I can only assume here. It could be the "denial" comes from the fact you keep stating wrong things and theorycrafting with wrong data, invalidating everything you base the above statement on.

Please specify wrong or incorrect detail, I am always happy to learn! Otherwise just another throwaway comment.

No offence taken, No offence meant

As for nuking the Balor, now staff have cleared up their error re Avasculate (which again, is fine, it happens) I know I cant nuke him, completely. But the BS has the same defences as the armoured caster, can melee as well as that 1-handed STR sorc example (which the BS STR version was better than), and that 4787hp is going to hit anything without that magic immunity percentage (swap element for target). So, for example, what are the stats for the UD Pit Fiend?

Its a powerful PrC. You can nuke with it, melee with it, better defences, add a level 5/6/7 spellbook to melee bases (Swash, Weapon Master, Assassin, the Bladesinger feats are perfect for them). It has features not seen on any other PrC (Stat AC bonus kept in armor, wiz/sorc cast in light armour, d8hp for a purely arcane PrC).

Its a powerful PrC.

Happy gaming!

BigJ

[Invoker]

I ASKED about what Avasculate did in this thread,

I stop you right here, it's probably an easy example of what I mean: people don't believe you because you make strong claims, yet your doubts prove you've never even met the creature.

This is as concise as I possibly can put it. Questions like "Why on earth wouldn't you open with VF?" are very strange to me, as a long-time wizard player. Vampiric Feast has a huge defensive value, aside from the offense. But never mind, all beside the point.

No offence taken, No offence meant

Good, and none taken, thank you for stating it.

As for nuking the Balor, now staff have cleared up their error re Avasculate (which again, is fine, it happens) I know I cant nuke him, completely. But the BS has the same defences as the armoured caster, can melee as well as that 1-handed STR sorc example (which the BS STR version was better than), and that 4787hp is going to hit anything without that magic immunity percentage (swap element for target). So, for example, what are the stats for the UD Pit Fiend?

You don't have the same defense has the armored caster, because that one can use Stone and Iron Body. Ah, ok, so the "complete nuking" is off the table, I didn't grasp you had realized this already.

I don't really remember the exact stats of the Fiend in the UD, but he is significantly weaker than the Balor. You can use it as a test, if you like, but the Balor is superior.

Its a powerful PrC. You can nuke with it, melee with it, better defences, add a level 5/6/7 spellbook to melee bases (Swash, Weapon Master, Assassin, the Bladesinger feats are perfect for them). It has features not seen on any other PrC (Stat AC bonus kept in armor, wiz/sorc cast in light armour, d8hp for a purely arcane PrC).

Its a powerful PrC.

Happy gaming!

BigJ

I think we use the word "powerful" differently.

To desambiguate, I believe it's a Tier 2 PrC, in line with current Gishes.

Earlier in this thread, you mentioned this class is overpowered in your view. I can name dozens of archetypes that do better (farm faster, level faster, are better in events...you name it). For example, a caster Cleric, which is often considered nothing more than a "good" character, can nuke better than you, has better defenses than you, and can melee well enough.

The options including WM, SB and whatnot aren't even Tier 2.

To be overpowered, the Bladesinger should allow builds more powerful (or at least in line with) the current Tier 1.

And it doesn't.

[mrm3ntalist]

Again, people are ignoring the math, skipping over what I have said or are just misreading what I write.

For another time, your math is wrong. The calculations of the damage from your spells is wrong. The DCs are not high enough so the balor will always make the save for half damage. So right there, most of your damaging spells are halved. Add in the elemental reduction the Balor has and you will barely scratch him.

Even if all your orbs hit, even if they crit, you dont have enough mate. Add the above in your calculations so that you can see that again, your math come short.

As far as surviving the Balor, i am sorry to say you wont. From what I understand, you havent fought him.

A Dragonslayer was able to beat the balor even though barely, without casting a single offensive spell. It was a very long battle and almost run out of buffs. The only reason such build was able to solo the balor was bigby 5. Bigby 5 is no more, so with the AC/AB you are talking about and the lack of ironbody will get your character killed every time. Possibly within 3 minutes.

[Valefort]

Bladesinger can't pick vamp feast, you need to be good aligned.

3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 (bonus spells from 30 INT)

5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 (base number spells with a specialization school)

1 1 1 1 (items)

=

9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 6 (spell slots)

9th : empowered polar ray * 6
8th : maximized IGMS * 5 (Premo)
7th : empowered IGMS * 6
6th : IGMS * 4 (greater heroism, superior resistance, shadow shield)
5th : Empowered Orb of Cold * 7
4th : Maximized Lesser Orb of Cold - 9d8 * 8
3th : empowered ice darts * 3 (displace (2), haste, IMA (2))
2th : ice darts * 3 (bear, mirror (5))
1th : Lesser Orb of Cold * 7 (shield (2))

Cold damage :

(45d6)*6 + 27d6 * 7 + 9*8 * 7 + (2d4+1)*13*3 + (2d4+1)*9*3 + 9d8*7 = 945 + 661.5 + 504 + 396 + 283.5 = 2790

Magic damage :

24*6*5 + 36*d6*7 + 24d6*4 = 1650

I don't have the stats under my eyes but I think there is 25% damage reduction on cold + a little flat DR. If you look at mrm3entalist's screenshot you see the damage absorbed varies, I'll forget the DR and just go with 25% damage reduction (which I already said is different from SR btw, it will be applied to orbs).

Total damage : (2790+1650) * 75/100 = 3330 damage.

Even with vamp feast on top you don't kill it, a frost mage asoc would go closer. Your problem will be surviving anyway.

As for nuking the Balor, now staff have cleared up their error re Avasculate (which again, is fine, it happens) I know I cant nuke him, completely. But the BS has the same defences as the armoured caster, can melee as well as that 1-handed STR sorc example (which the BS STR version was better than), and that 4787hp is going to hit anything without that magic immunity percentage (swap element for target).

No, a Bladesinger has to choose between pumping INT to get an high AC and pumping STR to get a good AB, or anything in between that they desire. You can't have both good AC and good AB.

Its a powerful PrC. You can nuke with it, melee with it, better defences, add a level 5/6/7 spellbook to melee bases (Swash, Weapon Master, Assassin, the Bladesinger feats are perfect for them). It has features not seen on any other PrC (Stat AC bonus kept in armor, wiz/sorc cast in light armour, d8hp for a purely arcane PrC).

It's not a weak PRC, but it's not a killer PRC like Blood magus or shadow adept can be either. Like your comment shows it can do several things but isn't reaching the top in any of those fields.

[Steve]

Can someone just script a mini-me-balor for BigJ to kill? I mean, he's working so hard for it....

[chad878262]

It's more of a Bard than a Bard...only weaker. Jack of many trades, but master of none.

Bards a better gish.

Any DC Caster is a better DC Caster.

Any existing Blaster build is a better blaster.

But Bladesinger is a better Blaster and DC Caster than a Bard.

A better Gish than a DC Caster or a Blaster.

A better DC Caster than a Bard or a Blaster.


Make sense?

[Invoker]

Can someone just script a mini-me-balor for BigJ to kill? I mean, he's working so hard for it....

RRRROFL!!

@Chad: thanks for the analysis. Its logic is sound, but allow me a few honorable mentions:

A better DC Caster than a Bard or a Blaster.

Sorc/BM/ASoC/AM begs to differ.

Warlocks would also be very offended.

A better Gish than a DC Caster or a Blaster.

A DC Cleric and its Divine Power and melee-oriented spell selection likely disagree.

Dragon Druid SURELY does.