Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[zhazz]

Combat Expertise is better but worse at the same time. The fact that you can no longer stack Combat Expertise with Dodge armor will drop the max AC of everyone that used it before by 6 points since ICE was +6 and +20 dodge AC = 26 while now you can only get +20. It's a very big nerf to be honest.

Being able to hit 24+ Dodge though will allow you to equip more interesting boots permanently other than +4 Dodge boots. I see that as an absolute plus, since it's the only item slot that currently can't be replaced due to lack of spells to fill in instead.

[Kitunenotsume]

One concern that has occurred to me regarding this change, and specifically the adjustment from Parry to Total Defence:

To my knowledge, Parry mode is the only means of turning off automatic AoO, which is primarily used by casters under Invisibility or Sanctuary effects who are providing party-support, and thus actively do not want to risk making attacks that would drop protections. With the change from Parry to Total Defence, there will no longer be a means to disable automatic AoO while retaining Casting ability.
Is this correct?

[Rhifox]

Combat Expertise is better but worse at the same time. The fact that you can no longer stack Combat Expertise with Dodge armor will drop the max AC of everyone that used it before by 6 points since ICE was +6 and +20 dodge AC = 26 while now you can only get +20. It's a very big nerf to be honest.

What kinds of builds hit the dodge cap already?

[Young Werther]

Yeah I can't read but one thing on my melee system wishlist is for the spell enlarge to confer a +4 knock down bonus and vise-versa a +4 resist knock down status. Is it possible? Did I miss it somewhere in the massive OP?

[artemitavik]

Yeah I can't read but one thing on my melee system wishlist is for the spell enlarge to confer a +4 knock down bonus and vise-versa a +4 resist knock down status. Is it possible? Did I miss it somewhere in the massive OP?

I think it already does that via changing you from medium to large. I know when I use it I've had an easier time knocking down larger targets.

[Young Werther]

It might. I've been working under the assumption it's bugged like on the regular nwn2.

[Rhifox]

Vanilla knockdown does not take into account enlarge/reduce person afaik.

The new version does.

[artemitavik]

Combat Expertise is better but worse at the same time. The fact that you can no longer stack Combat Expertise with Dodge armor will drop the max AC of everyone that used it before by 6 points since ICE was +6 and +20 dodge AC = 26 while now you can only get +20. It's a very big nerf to be honest.

What kinds of builds hit the dodge cap already?

This is one of mine. It was meant to be a full AC and HP tank with:
- DR 15/-
- Fast Healing 7
- 18 Strength
- 30 Constitution
- Fortitude low 50s
- Will: Mid 40s
- Reflex: Mid 30s

Before changes:

AC Natural: 10 (Base) +1 (Armor Skin) +1 (Luck of Heroes) +6 (ICE) = +18
AC Armor: 8 (Mithral Full-Plate) +4 (Bracers) = +12
AC Shield: +4 (Tower Shield) +4 (Shield Enhancement) = +8
AC Natural: +4 (Amulet) = +4
AC Deflection: +4 (Cloak) = +4
AC Dodge: +4 (Boots) +3 (Dexterity) +3 (Tumble) +4 (Improved Defence) +3 (Athkatlan Triparite) +1 (Dodge) = +18 (Dodge and Dexterity do not count for +20 cap) (14/20 +20 cap)
Total Unbuffed AC:
Anyone: 64
Giants: 68 (18/20 +20 cap)

Max Buffed AC: 64 +2 (Improved Magic Armor) +1 (Magic Vestment) +5 (Tortoise Shell) +1 (Deflection) +6 [Dodge (very easy to achieve with bard partner) (only +2 needed vs giants)] = 79 AC

After changes

AC Natural: 10 (Base) +1 (Armor Skin) +1 (Luck of Heroes) = +12
AC Armor: 8 (Mithral Full-Plate) +4 (Bracers) = +12
AC Shield: +4 (Tower Shield) +4 (Shield Enhancement) = +8
AC Natural: +4 (Amulet) = +4
AC Deflection: +4 (Cloak) = +4
AC Dodge: +4 (Boots) +3 [Dexterity (Doesn't count for +20)] +2 (Fighting Defensively) +3 (Tumble) +4 (Improved Defence) +3 (Athkatlan Triparite) +1 (Dodge [Doesn't count for +20)] +4 (Combat Expertise) = +24 (Dodge and Dexterity do not count for +20 cap) (20/20 +20 cap)
Total Unbuffed AC: 64 AC (20/20 cap) Against giants: 64 +4 (+24/20 cap) = 64

Max Buffed AC: 64 +2 (Improved Magic Armor) +1 (Magic Vestment) +5 (Tortoise Shell) +1 (Deflection) = 73 AC.

Basically my full-tank build now becomes a worse tank in comparison of a duelist while before it was way better. While it has a less max of 6 AC it also has the requirement of going fighting style to be allowed to use tumble, which gives him a -4 AB (Fighting Defensively) -4 AB (Combat Expertise) = -8 AB instead of -6 AB, which means that he does not only lose 6 AC but also 2AB.

Instead, duelists get easy access to +20 permanent dodge with no AB loss and being able to focus in other things like damage rather than tankiness. This means that a duelist will be a better fighter than a tank but also a better tank than a tank.

As a note, I think your After Changes math might be a little off. the CE last I checked was going to be 5 AC, not 4 (unless you're counting it only as 4 because Dodge AC cap?)

Does bardsong count as dodge AC and not armor ac?

Additionally, if you hit the cap prior to turning on all the modes like CE or Triparte, then... you can just not use the mode. If CE doesn't increase your AC, why use it and take the AB hit if your AC will still be maxed out? (I don't know if it wouldn't, I'm at work and not fully doing the maths as yet, but...)

[Rhifox]

Instead, duelists get easy access to +20 permanent dodge with no AB loss and being able to focus in other things like damage rather than tankiness. This means that a duelist will be a better fighter than a tank but also a better tank than a tank.

They do receive AB loss. It's only +15 dodge bonus when in Fighting Defensively with -4 AB, or +20 stacked with CE at -9 AB, or +20 with total defense (can't make regular attacks). The duelist AC is not passive, it's part of modes, and so takes all the same AB penalties everyone else does.

[artemitavik]

And if there's a 20 AC dodge cap, will they really get that +15, assuming they've already got gear or abilities that give them passive dodge? *shrug*

There's a lot of customization and give and take in this setup.

[zhazz]

Yeah I can't read but one thing on my melee system wishlist is for the spell enlarge to confer a +4 knock down bonus and vise-versa a +4 resist knock down status. Is it possible? Did I miss it somewhere in the massive OP?

I think it already does that via changing you from medium to large. I know when I use it I've had an easier time knocking down larger targets.

It increases the model size of your character. But mechanically it doesn't increase your character's creature size. Otherwise Enlarge Person would enable you to wield a Great Sword in one hand, and a shield in the other. And that doesn't happen. Conversely Reduce Person would then make most characters unequip their main-hand weapon if used with a shield or other weapon, since it is now too large for them to use in one hand.

[Steve]

The builds that will take the most "severe" hit are those that dipped for Tumble only, and did not have any Combat Feats or CE/ICE. Those builds just lost the 3 AC that Tumble granted, unless they now utilize the free Combat Expertise that every PC gets.

Where the problem lies, even after having been given a compensation Feat of free CE, is that CE both gives and takes away.

Builds that just dipped for Tumble +3 AC likely won't have high AB anyway, and thus it will not be advantageous to use CE in any capacity, because while +1 to +5 AC on demand is a cool thing, not hitting your opponent because you lost -1 to -5 AB is going to suck.

We all know very well that the difference of 2/3 AC can make or break a build's encounter success/survival. Don't think players aren't counting pennies. Yes, adjusting mobs further down the road to lower AB across the board will in principle remove the "need" for Players to dip into Tumble for that +3 AC. It might be a looooooong wait though.

Overall, I think a game is better off when there is less certainty in experience, when the results are based on chance. That IS the foundation of D&D, actually. But, D&D was not designed with a CPRG environment in mind. You don't encounter 1,933,974,921,343,300 mobs in the lifetime of a Character. And, D&D isn't ever supposed to be as static as a CPRG is going to be. Honestly, it IS that static nature that Players enjoy, I'd argue. One where they can challenge themselves to overcome the maths, and create something that "wins" in the circumstances constantly presented.

Because let's face it, those static circumstances, the Content of the Server, give lots of rewards to Players. Far more that RP is giving, on BGTSCC.

[AgentOrange]

A large part of the problem is the wacky AI of mobs. Besides MaA having some limited aggro generating abilities, PvE enemies tend to scatter all over, especially towards non-heavies, and it's nearly impossible to nab aggro.

Perhaps addressing the taunt skill should be considered.

[Bobthehero]

Making taunt actually ''taunt'' would be a good idea. Make it a feat so you can either use taunt in its current form for the debuffs, or force aggro on you. Leave it as is for the MaA, as the DC for their own taunt works off the class levels you have in MaA (and it reinforces the class' role as a tank/battlefield controller). Simple as. With the future grapple, you could probably make an ''offhand'' MaA, as in, a martial build that controls the battlefield with KD, grapple, taunt.

[Kitunenotsume]

An observation:

Springboard: Lasts only one round, instead of two. DC now uses TA class level x2 instead of HD/2. Moved to capstone slot.

Isn't this functionally just a fixed [20 + Dex] for the DC?