The Bladesinger PRC

[Juramenta]

Warlocks would also be very offended.

Nah they are way to busy being awesome to even notice the insult .

[BigJ]

For another time, your math is wrong. The calculations of the damage from your spells is wrong. The DCs are not high enough so the balor will always make the save for half damage. So right there, most of your damaging spells are halved. Add in the elemental reduction the Balor has and you will barely scratch him.

I don't have much time, so just highlighting this as it exemplifies what has occurred often in this thread.

NONE OF THE SPELLS I USED HAVE SAVES FOR HALF DAMAGE. Repeatedly stated, yet still you somehow keep believing its going to take half damage. That right there is why this thread has bothered me so much. Head of QC, blindly and repeated over looking the data presented.

I have also REPEATEDLY said I am a UD player, so no, as I have openly stated I don't know the Balor. But a FvS player told me he thought the Balor was weaker than the UD Pit, so that was my reference.

Of course having those UD pits stats would help.

and of course this:

Can someone just script a mini-me-balor for BigJ to kill? I mean, he's working so hard for it....

Priceless Steve, priceless

Gotta go.

BigJ

[chad878262]

Chad: thanks for the analysis. Its logic is sound, but allow me a few honorable mentions:

Dagnabbit Invoker...You and your logic and knowledge of everything... Bah! Allow ME to elaborate!

J/K of course, I love ya man!


I was really oversimplifying it, but I only meant that as far as Wizard/Sorc builds are concerned (since one of those classes is required for BladeSinger) that it is capable of being somewhere between the three concept types, but will never be the best at any one type. ie it is not going to be better at being a gish than a Bard (or, frankly it won't be better than current Arcane Gish types...W/EK/PM/DS for instance), it is not going to be better at DC's than even non-optimized DC builds (don't even need a DC enhancing PRC to beat it due to heavy feat req's) and it can't do better at blasting than what can already be built. However, it can be above average at all three. Which is nice, but makes it more of an RP niche than a powerbuild. To be a PB IMHO you have to focus on being the best in one area, anything less, any RP choices, anything you do to try and lessen a weakness (unless it can be done without taking anything from your strength) and it is not top tier. There are certainly Top Tier builds that can make non-optimized decisions and still be top tier, but only because those decisions do not compromise their ability that makes them optimized. To use your example of HiPS Mage, while it is not top tier in comparison to other DC casters it is still a tier 1 build because it can still be an effective DC caster. In fact, for someone like yours truly (and I would guess in the hands of most players) it is more powerful than your build would be in their hands, simply because it is EASIER to play well. While you would of course be marginally worse off because HiPS takes away from the build a little and you don't gain anything because HiPS is not needed, for me the loss of HiPS would make the difference because I can't effectively plan out my positioning, casting and defenses. HiPS covers up my (the players) weaknesses, not the the builds.

Hope that clarifies the point I was trying to make. Some of the truly BEST powerbuilds are utter crap unless in the hands of a truly skilled player. Meanwhile some of the top tier builds that are just a step or two below those near godlikes (I'd call them 1a vs. tier 2) are better simply because they require a little (or a lot) less skill to play somewhat efficiently.

[Sun Wukong]

BGTSCC spell changes
Stock NWN2's wizard and sorcerer spell list

Orb of Cold:

• An orb of cold about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target dealing 1D6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 15D6). You must succeed on ranged touch attack to hit your target. A creature struck by the orb take damage and becomes blinded by the cold for 1 round. A successful fortitude save negates the blind effect, but does not reduce damage.

Thus, does the balor have some magical ability that allows it to take only have damage?

[mrm3ntalist]

For another time, your math is wrong. The calculations of the damage from your spells is wrong. The DCs are not high enough so the balor will always make the save for half damage. So right there, most of your damaging spells are halved. Add in the elemental reduction the Balor has and you will barely scratch him.

I don't have much time, so just highlighting this as it exemplifies what has occurred often in this thread.

NONE OF THE SPELLS I USED HAVE SAVES FOR HALF DAMAGE. Repeatedly stated, yet still you somehow keep believing its going to take half damage. That right there is why this thread has bothered me so much. Head of QC, blindly and repeated over looking the data presented.

I have also REPEATEDLY said I am a UD player, so no, as I have openly stated I don't know the Balor. But a FvS player told me he thought the Balor was weaker than the UD Pit, so that was my reference.

Of course having those UD pits stats would help.

That was a stupid mistake on my part. I can only apologise for that. The thing is though, that even if you use minimal spells for buffs, get to the Balor without casting any spell and fighting him 1vs1, there is not enough blasting power to kill the balor. Like Matelener said, in order to do it you will need many scrolls of the spells you are going to use. A build like the one you posted, I am sorry to say it wont last long against the Balor and will need to rebuff which means less blasting spells. The only way for a 50-52 AC build to stand against the balor for long enough ( which has 32BAB - 7attacks - and 48AB) was bigby5 which lowered the AB by ten. Bigby5 is nowhere near as efficient nowadays.

It is clear you think otherwise, so the Bladesinger PRC is almost ready for you to experiment with. Who knows, maybe you are right and this is a very powerful PRC after all, one that we might need to nerf.

[BigJ]

For another time, your math is wrong. The calculations of the damage from your spells is wrong.

I waited several days, nothing has appeared. I guess just another throwaway comment from mrm3ntalist.

Still, regarding that 48ab where has that suddenly some from?

When I asked this question in this thread . .

How? How is the Balor even going to hit my Wiz / BS? Does it have more than 40ab?

I got this response from Valefort . .

Yes, 45 AB, 5000 HP, 47 AC and it casts mordenkainen's disjunction at least once (and he's not alone, though you can game the AI to kill the other mobs first).

However on your screenshot M., the combat log shows an AB of 46.

So, what changed this time?

Btw, the NWN2 engine is hardcoded for max 6 attacks a round from BAB, doesn't matter if BAB is 26, 32 or 40. A fact confirmed again in your screenshot, the combat log shows the Balor having 6 attacks.

Also confirmed in that screenshot is the Cold DR -

Damage Resistance absorbs: 9 (0 cold dmg), 9 (0 cold dmg), 10 (3 cold dmg), 9 (0 cold dmg), 10 (2 cold dmg).

So the combat log suggests the only cold DR is DR10.

Unless that has changed too.

Something else that confused me, previous statements were:

Wiz or Sorc 6 / EK 4 / Asoc 10 / BS 10 can blast and summon but cannot melee in an effective fashion at all, AB is too low.

A typical Sorck10/EK10/DS10 can solo the Balor (with a bit of luck since the bigby 5 was nerfed)

And yet in response to another question -

So excatly how does the Sorc10/ek10/DS10 kill the Balor as Mrmm said. It may help me understand.

I got this response.

With his sword, here is a build with the stats it gets : http://nwn2db.com/build/?261851

Hidden: hide
AB : 25 (BAB) + 10 (STR) +2 (feats) +5 (GMW) +4 (GH) + 1 (Haste) - 6 (IPA) = 41 AB

Damage : 1d6 (base) +5 (GMW) +2 (some elemental damage) + 15 (STR, two handing) +12 (IPA) = 37.5 damage, 26.5 one handing

AC : 10 (base) + 8 (mithral full plate) + 3 (DEX) + 3 (tumble) + 6 (IMA) +5 (shadow sheild) +4 (deflection item) +4 (dodge boots) + 4 (shield spell) + 1 (haste) = 48 AC, 52 with tower shield

Yet, to match my Bladsinger Blaster AC it has to use the tower shield which means -2ab. Which means AB 39.

39

My Blaster AB is 38.

You can understand my confusion as its only a 2.083% difference (4.166% If you use Iron Body, but then -6 dex, so less AC). And the Bladesinger STR version I posted stays a 2hander, has same ac as the 1hander, with more epic feats to choose from.

Continuing with the math your damage calculations are wrong Valefort, as one mistake is pretty glaring I'm assuming you just rushed them, guessing the reason is you have a lot on your todo list so no worries. I'll let you correct them though as this post is long enough.

Except to say the correct calculation of empowered spells is (24d6) x 1.5.

BigJ

[mrm3ntalist]

Btw, the NWN2 engine is hardcoded for max 6 attacks a round from BAB, doesn't matter if BAB is 26, 32 or 40. A fact confirmed again in your screenshot, the combat log shows the Balor having 6 attacks.

Wrong. You get a 7th attack with 31 BAB. Players with breach gnomes can vouch for that.

[BigJ]

Btw, the NWN2 engine is hardcoded for max 6 attacks a round from BAB, doesn't matter if BAB is 26, 32 or 40. A fact confirmed again in your screenshot, the combat log shows the Balor having 6 attacks.

Wrong. You get a 7th attack with 31 BAB. Players with breach gnomes can vouch for that.

Then why on your screenshot did it only get 6??

Answer that.

BigJ

[Valefort]

BigJ, the information isn't exactly easy to get completely as you have to check what items the Balor uses and which spells he has. After checking where that 1 AB difference might come from it's most probably the sword the balor is using, it has +1 EB. Also it has 30 BAB from what I can look at, just know that if the BAB of a creature goes above 30 then you get a 7th attack, and so on.

I corrected my calculations for the IGMS part, you're still very far obviously.

Yet, to match my Bladsinger Blaster AC it has to use the tower shield which means -2ab.

I haven't done it myself but I doubt that a tower shield will be used, also your STR bladesinger will not have the same AC since it has only 18 base INT and you need 30 INT (buffed) and 10 Bladesinger levels to get the full +5 INT to AC of Bladesong (re-read the description it wasn't changed). I'm not even speaking about your blaster who, for the 10th time, does not have enough damage per hit to be of any use.

Regarding the -6 DEX because of Iron body you're not forced to take the penalty if you do things right...

[BigJ]

How did M get the Bab wrong btw? Its a fixed figure, stated on a char sheet separately from AB. In the Toolkit you can check outsider levels for bab on the Balor (Outsider is high bab class). Not sure how you read 31 instead of 30 on those.

BigJ, the information isn't exactly easy to get completely as you have to check what items the Balor uses and which spells he has. After checking where that 1 AB difference might come from it's most probably the sword the balor is using, it has +1 EB. Also it has 30 BAB from what I can look at, just know that if the BAB of a creature goes above 30 then you get a 7th attack, and so on.

I corrected my calculations for the IGMS part, you're still very far obviously.

Yet, to match my Bladsinger Blaster AC it has to use the tower shield which means -2ab.

I haven't done it myself but I doubt that a tower shield will be used, also your STR bladesinger will not have the same AC since it has only 18 base INT and you need 30 INT (buffed) and 10 Bladesinger levels to get the full +5 INT to AC of Bladesong (re-read the description it wasn't changed). I'm not even speaking about your blaster who, for the 10th time, does not have enough damage per hit to be of any use.

Regarding the -6 DEX because of Iron body you're not forced to take the penalty if you do things right...

Hmm, so now 48ac is fine for the Balor? Cool.

Correction again. The Bladesinger STR build has 1 less AC than the Bladesinger Blaster. Still 4 more than build you posted.

Btw, the Bladesinger Blaster does about the same damage as the 1h version of the build you posted. The Bladesinger STR build has better AC than your 2h build because the sun elf starts with 18 INT, meaning +4 item or spell equals 22 (+3ac as soon as the Bladesinger gets the ac bonus). It also has armor skin whereas the Blaster doesn't, hence the 1 ac difference.

Meh, no matter, just correcting the differences.

Btw been meaning to ask, hows the new 'update the server on the fly' system going that AoS built? Taltented guy that fella.

BigJ

[Valefort]

How did M get the Bab wrong btw? Its a fixed figure, stated on a char sheet separately from AB. In the Toolkit you can check outsider levels for bab on the Balor (Outsider is high bab class). Not sure how you read 31 instead of 30 on those.

Because he didn't look there, duh.

Btw, the Bladesinger Blaster does about the same damage as the 1h version of the build you posted. The Bladesinger STR build has better AC than your 2h build because the sun elf starts with 18 INT, meaning +4 item or spell equals 22 (+3ac as soon as the Bladesinger gets the ac bonus). It also has armor skin whereas the Blaster doesn't, hence the 1 ac difference.

Sigh, no the bladesinger blaster has crappy AB and therefore has crappy damage, even though its damage per hit is about the same indeed, but it cannot land hits as often hence it has crappy damage. I don't know how many times I have to write it but it's becoming tedious. Also for the shield/no shield the idea is to switch the shield on when you want to renew key spells like mirror image then going back to 2 handing mode to be able to damage the balor.

And regarding what AoS did it works, it's not on the fly but automated and for the rest he can speak about it better than me !

[K'yon Oblodra]

Hey guys,

don't mean to interrupt the friendly banter but is parry actually worth focusing on? As in having a high parry value to defend rather than attack and all the while cast spells from relative safety due to parrying?

It's how I would see this class working from an RP point of view.

I am not looking for a powerbuild but it would be nice if it was at least somewhat reliable.

Thanks in advance,

K'yon

[chad878262]

Hey guys,

don't mean to interrupt the friendly banter but is parry actually worth focusing on? As in having a high parry value to defend rather than attack and all the while cast spells from relative safety due to parrying?

It's how I would see this class working from an RP point of view.

I am not looking for a powerbuild but it would be nice if it was at least somewhat reliable.

Thanks in advance,

K'yon

If this is the route you want to take you are much better off going Combat Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise. With the Parry skill you need to invest skill points and if you riposte attack somehow it will probably screw up your spell casting. In general there are only two modes a caster should use, either ICE or Defensive Casting (to avoid attacks of opportunity when casting in melee).

[K'yon Oblodra]

I take it one can't use both? Like parry AND ICE optimally all 3 .

The bladesong is a primarily defensive style of combat, with devastating strikes considered less important than a superior guard position. From this superior defensive posture, magical attacks and spells may be used without fear of successful counter-attack, when performed by a Tel'Quessir fully proficient in the style.

This sounds a bit like ICE or like parry... Is parry as useless as it sounds? I really hoped I could use it together with a bladesinger to get a pretty fitting fightstyle not really relying on riposte attacks but rather the defensive aspect of parry.

I hadn't played nwn2 for ages so I am not too deep into the mechanics.

[chad878262]

This sounds a bit like ICE or like parry... Is parry as useless as it sounds? I really hoped I could use it together with a bladesinger to get a pretty fitting fightstyle not really relying on riposte attacks but rather the defensive aspect of parry.

Vanilla combat modes cannot be combined. Parry is fairly useless because even with a super high score you get less attacks than you would normally (I think riposte is capped at 3 / round). In any case, as I said if you were to riposte while casting a spell it would ruin your spell in order to make the riposte attack.

I haven't used parry much so perhaps another player can provide you better detail around it.