Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[DaloLorn]

An observation:

Springboard: Lasts only one round, instead of two. DC now uses TA class level x2 instead of HD/2. Moved to capstone slot.

Isn't this functionally just a fixed [20 + Dex] for the DC?

... Good point. TA level will always be 5...

[Theodore01]

Add some dice roll to all springboard and (new) tumble jumps. Could be how high or far he jumps.

[zhazz]

An observation:

Springboard: Lasts only one round, instead of two. DC now uses TA class level x2 instead of HD/2. Moved to capstone slot.

Isn't this functionally just a fixed [20 + Dex] for the DC?

... Good point. TA level will always be 5...

I suppose the DC might go down via Level Drain, but otherwise it stays at 20 + Dex.

[cosmic ray]

I want to reiterate my earlier opinion that, if this overhaul of the rule system is meant to allow a better rebalancing of npc enemies in the module, especially if one of the main goals is to make DC spells finally useful against NPCs,then, with that promise in mind, I no longer view it with such a high degree of existential dread. However, I still think some details need serious rethinking, namely:

Tumble bonus to AC:



Am I misreading something or is this better in PnP than in the new system, despite the new system claiming harmony with PnP? You don't need to be ultra epic to enjoy the full benefits.




Freedom of Movement blocking Bigby hands:

This is a massive change for mages, for the negative. If such a long-lasting non-breachable and widely available protective spell can make anyone immune to bigby, then that spell should be added to breach list. Also if FoM magically makes people immune to Bigby 6's KD effect, shouldn't it grant immunity to KD feat too?




Not a problem with this upcoming patch per se, but shapeshifting blocking clickies from being used (knockdown etc) has always been a problem in the game and now that there will be more clickies to use, that problem will only get worse. Can't this limitation be fixed?



Edit: I nearly forgot something else. If this goes live as described or in some similar manner, most of us will be fumbling about with brand new mechanics that we are not used to and have never played with. Surely the RCR limit of one hit per character could be rethought, no? All it takes is one mistake due to misunderstanding something or other and there goes your RCR. I think the current limit is too harsh for such a novelty system.

[Kitunenotsume]

For consideration regarding implementation and interactions with modes:
Per P&P, Two Weapon Defence gains additional bonuses during FD/TD (See bolded text).

Two-Weapon Defense [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit
When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.

Special
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Steve]

And...just to be clear, Improved Combat Expertise is being removed?

[EasternCheesE]

And...just to be clear, Improved Combat Expertise is being removed?

Yep.
You can see it (regardless of numbers) as if:
CE becomes Fighting defensively and becomes free.
ICE becomes CE and now has -5/+5 max with your ability to decide exact value.
So if you had ICE, enjoy, you get a free feat to spend on either recovering that 1 AC or for something else.

[Steve]

And...just to be clear, Improved Combat Expertise is being removed?

Yep.
You can see it (regardless of numbers) as if:
CE becomes Fighting defensively and becomes free.
ICE becomes CE and now has -5/+5 max with your ability to decide exact value.
So if you had ICE, enjoy, you get a free feat to spend on either recovering that 1 AC or for something else.

Okay, thanks.

And using Fighting Defensively with >25 Tumble will be +5 AC dodge / - 4 AB. Yes?

And if you use FD + >25 Tumble + CE the totals are up to +10 AC / - 9 AB?

[EasternCheesE]

And...just to be clear, Improved Combat Expertise is being removed?

Yep.
You can see it (regardless of numbers) as if:
CE becomes Fighting defensively and becomes free.
ICE becomes CE and now has -5/+5 max with your ability to decide exact value.
So if you had ICE, enjoy, you get a free feat to spend on either recovering that 1 AC or for something else.

Okay, thanks.

And using Fighting Defensively with >25 Tumble will be +5 AC dodge / - 4 AB. Yes?

And if you use FD + >25 Tumble + CE the totals are up to +10 AC / - 9 AB?

Unless Rhifox withdraws all the Tumble changes, not just -3 AC part, yes, that's the plan.

[Snarfy]

- Tumble no longer gives +1 passive AC for every 10 ranks. Its bonuses are applied to the fighting defensively mode instead, as noted in the Fighting Defensively section.

I don't have the energy to read through the whole thread... but: rogues. Ouch? They are already AC starved as is, and their AB isn't wonderful... so to get the benefit of their tumble AC they have to take a hit to AB by... fighting defensively? This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, as far as it pertains to rogues(considering they only do damage out of stealth, aka being on the attack). Or maybe I'm reading this wrong?

(PS. Sneaks were already dying a slow death, imho. This probably doesn't help)

Late edit: I can only speak for myself here, but I hate rcr'ing. If these changes mean that I will need to rcr one or more of my characters, then I probably just wont bother, and I'll likely be around less(to be fair though, it's not like I play much anyways). Rcr's and all that gear swapping is tedious as hell. Simply put, for me at least, it's not worth the effort to figure out and dance around a whole new set of mechanics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[DaloLorn]

Am I misreading something or is this better in PnP than in the new system, despite the new system claiming harmony with PnP? You don't need to be ultra epic to enjoy the full benefits.

You are misreading, yes. The TD bonus has been moved from 5 Tumble to 5 Parry, but that image otherwise corresponds to the first buff thresholds in Rhi's system. You get +3 instead of +2 with 5 Tumble and FD, and you get +6 instead of +4 with 5 Parry and TD.

Not a problem with this upcoming patch per se, but shapeshifting blocking clickies from being used (knockdown etc) has always been a problem in the game and now that there will be more clickies to use, that problem will only get worse. Can't this limitation be fixed?

Already has been. Rhi's fixed it using the same principle Matelener used for shifter/epic wildshape clickies - a custom UI panel that isn't beholden to the rules of quickbars.

Edit: I nearly forgot something else. If this goes live as described or in some similar manner, most of us will be fumbling about with brand new mechanics that we are not used to and have never played with. Surely the RCR limit of one hit per character could be rethought, no? All it takes is one mistake due to misunderstanding something or other and there goes your RCR. I think the current limit is too harsh for such a novelty system.

IMO, ideally we'll want someone to get JEGS back into working order...

[Flatted Fifth]

As of your offer, it's is a nice way to do it and, i believe, Rhifox will think about it. It still punishes lower BAB builds even if they have high dex. Say, wizards don't have big bab, so with change you make, it's in same situation that some builds lose AC and some don't, it only shifts focus. I believe you idea can be tinkered and reworked to remove that flaw though.

That was actually my intention with that specific number, +1 ac for every 7 bab. It would mean all medium BAB characters would get the same +3 ac they get now. It would mean pure class melee characters like paladins, barbs, fighters, etc (or even those with up to 8 levels of a medium AB class like cleric), would get +4 ac instead. And low ab characters would get +2. However, I think that spells meant to turn casters into melee machines should give an addtional +1 ac over what they already do. Tensers should give +5 ac and Divine Power should give +1. Or alternately, the spells could calculate what the ac bonus would be if the ab bonus the spells cause were the real one instead of a temp one and grant an ac bonus equal to the difference. Example, a lvl 15 cleric casts divine power giving themselves, temporarily, the ab of a lvl 15 fighter. As a lvl 15 cleric they have a bab of 11, so they get +1 ac. The spell has given them a temporary bab of 15, so that would be +2 ac if it were their real ab. As a result, the spell grants +1 ac.

A low AB character could also build with AB in mind if they want to be a caster who gets in melee. For example, a lvl 3 fighter, 17 sorcerer, and 10 eldritch knight would have a bab of 21 and therefore the same +3 ac that rogues get. If they took the practiced spellcaster feat, they'd still have caster level 30. Even better, 10 sorc/10 eldritch knight/ 10 dragonslayer would have a bab of 25, though with practiced spellcaster feat their caster level would only be 29.



Anyway, I'm glad to hear you like the basic concept and I'm also glad to hear you plan to adjust monster AB downwards before stripping +3 ac from most people (sans ab penalty) and 5 ac from some.

[Rask]

RIP my sorc, if im reading this right im going to lose 6AC from the build due to loss of ICE?, and all the bigby's spells will be significantly less useful. Oh well. Good thing I dont play them as a high combat character I guess. though I could be reading things wrong entirely.

Huge buff for Duelist though, that makes that class way more compelling now. This will probably be better for my MAA overall as well, but it seems like I will end up with a lot of wasted feats across my characters and will need to RCR.

[DaloLorn]

RIP my sorc, if im reading this right im going to lose 6AC from the build due to loss of ICE?

1 AC, actually, unless you intend to drop CE?

[selhan]

Yeah I think im gonna go with Blame on this..the more I read thru the more Im not wanting this change to happen..