Powerbuild 3 Level Rule

[Xanfyrst]

Quick Question:

If I wanted to go 20 Swashbuckler / 10 Duelist, do I have to take 3 Duelist levels BEFORE I hit level 20? Just curious.

No, you can take them after 20.... you just have to contact a DM (either in-game or per PM) and tell'em about it. Some say you have to ask for permission and not just tell'em about it, though the rules don't mention them. Maybe a DM can give us some clarification on that specifics... but you CAN take a new class after 20.

[DM Sword]

Keep it civil or the thread will get locked.

There is nothing cheap or conniving about taking 21 Ranger levels and then 9 new class levels. It isn't power building, it's just playing. But because the rule made so long ago happens to objurgate that, it is being vigorously defended and upheld. Really people, I can't take 21 Ranger levels and then stop taking Ranger levels because it is powerbuilding? That doesn't make any sense.

It can be considered powerbuilding if, for instance, you take 21 levels of ranger, then 9 levels of fighter. Because he/she waited to take the nine fighter levels he can get an EPIC feat EVERY level, from 22 to 30. Also, remember you can PM your build to the DM staff and see if they approve. We can tell relatively easily if you are powerbuilding or not and can give permission after discussing. Which makes this entire thread moot.

That being said, I can't help thinking that all those speaking out against multiclassing, class dipping, character building and optimisation should put up a sign saying "we're the one-sided hardcore roleplay militia, stand and deliver". What's so wrong with being able to combine abilities from classes in an effective way?

It is a balance issue, not always an RP issue. There are only a handful of class combinations that can solo the server, these people do not need to party up or roleplay with others. The goal in my mind would be to balance the classes in such a way that each person has a definite role in the party. For example, if you splash your fighter with rogue levels he can be way better than a pure rogue, and can solo the server.


However, take a step back and see what you guys are getting into a heated argument over… it really is quite ridiculous.

[AlphaCentaur]

It can be considered powerbuilding if, for instance, you take 21 levels of ranger, then 9 levels of fighter. Because he/she waited to take the nine fighter levels he can get an EPIC feat EVERY level, from 22 to 30.

A pure epic fighter gets those same bonus feats plus all the others from level 1 to 20. Bonus feats are just a feature of the fighter class, and a player may prefer to pick the epic ones over the normal ones, at the cost of delaying his fighter levels that long. If it's in the game, it's to be used.

That being said, I can't help thinking that all those speaking out against multiclassing, class dipping, character building and optimisation should put up a sign saying "we're the one-sided hardcore roleplay militia, stand and deliver". What's so wrong with being able to combine abilities from classes in an effective way?

It is a balance issue, not always an RP issue. There are only a handful of class combinations that can solo the server, these people do not need to party up or roleplay with others. The goal in my mind would be to balance the classes in such a way that each person has a definite role in the party. For example, if you splash your fighter with rogue levels he can be way better than a pure rogue, and can solo the server.

I personally don't like games where each class has its very definite purpose and occupies a small niche. It stinks of MMOs and ruins flavour for me. But I do agree that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses and that none should be all powerful.

However, take a step back and see what you guys are getting into a heated argument over… it really is quite ridiculous.

If that is also meant at me, I'm pretty cool in this discussion. If my other post makes it seem otherwise, it's because of poor wording.

[nuthouse2k]

I think Muffin is on to something here. I might support the idea if it means i can take my shadowdancer lvl 2 and 3 at level 29 and 30 on my bard 27, SD 3. That way i can get faster acces to song and hymn of requiem and as Muffin said: It wouldn't be powerbuilding or anything as i'd get access to it anyway later...

[ThatPirateGuy]

I personally don't like games where each class has its very definite purpose and occupies a small niche. It stinks of MMOs and ruins flavour for me. But I do agree that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses and that none should be all powerful.

So, you do agree, but you don't agree...

Defined party roles, and limiting the capabilities of any one character is what keeps MMO's from being a number-crunchers paradise of soloing. Kind of like oh.. ummm... Here.

There's already builds on the server that can solo anything here, and there's no good way to get rid of it without ruining a LOT of flavor. So, if balance is unachievable without sucking out the flavor, why worry about the balance.

I say we toss in Full Kaedrins, Full RoF, and watch the fun unfold. Balance is already a joke, at best, this would just allow more creative ways to the same end. Besides, I want to lay siege to the merchant camp on a Drider Ninja/Warlock/Black Flame Zealot!

[Randall]

I personally don't like games where each class has its very definite purpose and occupies a small niche. It stinks of MMOs and ruins flavour for me. But I do agree that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses and that none should be all powerful.

So, you do agree, but you don't agree...

Defined party roles, and limiting the capabilities of any one character is what keeps MMO's from being a number-crunchers paradise of soloing. Kind of like oh.. ummm... Here.

There's already builds on the server that can solo anything here, and there's no good way to get rid of it without ruining a LOT of flavor. So, if balance is unachievable without sucking out the flavor, why worry about the balance.

I say we toss in Full Kaedrins, Full RoF, and watch the fun unfold. Balance is already a joke, at best, this would just allow more creative ways to the same end. Besides, I want to lay siege to the merchant camp on a Drider Ninja/Warlock/Black Flame Zealot!

I'd delete my NWN2 game, totally, and RP on forums/Msn.

[nuthouse2k]

Why??

It'd be awesome!!!

Who cares what's on the character sheet anyway?? Might as well have as much shit as possible to play with.... How does it make your experience with the game any worse?

[AlphaCentaur]

I personally don't like games where each class has its very definite purpose and occupies a small niche. It stinks of MMOs and ruins flavour for me. But I do agree that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses and that none should be all powerful.

So, you do agree, but you don't agree...

Defined party roles, and limiting the capabilities of any one character is what keeps MMO's from being a number-crunchers paradise of soloing. Kind of like oh.. ummm... Here.

There's already builds on the server that can solo anything here, and there's no good way to get rid of it without ruining a LOT of flavor. So, if balance is unachievable without sucking out the flavor, why worry about the balance.

I say we toss in Full Kaedrins, Full RoF, and watch the fun unfold. Balance is already a joke, at best, this would just allow more creative ways to the same end. Besides, I want to lay siege to the merchant camp on a Drider Ninja/Warlock/Black Flame Zealot!

What I mean to say is that MMOs take balance too far, to the point that it becomes ridiculous. Each character becomes a function within the group and not a person, which is bad in a roleplay environment, if you ask me. For example in WoW you have fighters to serve as tanks and draw aggro from the DPS people. They're only good as meatbags and don't actually fight in the real sense of the word. All in the name of mechanics and game balance, at the expense of realism and flavour. I rather like the imbalance present in PnP D&D, because it has realism to it, even if other parts of the game are quite made up, such as the combat system as Ambaryerno always points out. That imbalance, coupled with an ever-present DM to modify the challenge whenever needed gives character to the adventure.

[joleda]

Why??

It'd be awesome!!!

Who cares what's on the character sheet anyway?? Might as well have as much (#2) as possible to play with.... How does it make your experience with the game any worse?

Really? You character sheet provides the framework and boundaries of that particular character's personality and abilities. Just like characters with 8 Dex will suck at HIPSing, characters with 8 Charisma shouldn't be world leaders unless they spent a near lifetime raising their diplomacy.

How about a test:

1. Do you find the exuberant warrior, with 6 or 8 Charisma, that successfully rallies his troops to face difficult foes, somewhat insulting?
2. Do you see anything wrong with a character, who has 0 points in Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc., that is able to successfully convince anyone of anything?
3. Do you believe that this is just another mmo and a character's character sheet should only influence the character's behavior when the player feels like it? Ya know, character sheets are only builds and 'I am the character' stuff?

My point is that character behavior can only successfully enforced through self-policing. You, the player, have to have the self-control to not turn you stupid, ugly, manner-less Orc into a leader of many men.

There is nothing wrong with playing a soldier. I do it all the time, and I believe I have more fun than most because I'm not having to continually explain myself in RP why I decided that my faction turned against another faction, or whatever. I don't play myself through a computer game and end up taking things less personal than most of you. Learn from it!

[limited_resources]

Why??

It'd be awesome!!!

Who cares what's on the character sheet anyway?? Might as well have as much (#2) as possible to play with.... How does it make your experience with the game any worse?

Really? You character sheet provides the framework and boundaries of that particular character's personality and abilities. Just like characters with 8 Dex will suck at HIPSing, characters with 8 Charisma shouldn't be world leaders unless they spent a near lifetime raising their diplomacy.

How about a test:

1. Do you find the exuberant warrior, with 6 or 8 Charisma, that successfully rallies his troops to face difficult foes, somewhat insulting?
2. Do you see anything wrong with a character, who has 0 points in Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc., that is able to successfully convince anyone of anything?
3. Do you believe that this is just another mmo and a character's character sheet should only influence the character's behavior when the player feels like it? Ya know, character sheets are only builds and 'I am the character' stuff?

My point is that character behavior can only successfully enforced through self-policing. You, the player, have to have the self-control to not turn you stupid, ugly, manner-less Orc into a leader of many men.

There is nothing wrong with playing a soldier. I do it all the time, and I believe I have more fun than most because I'm not having to continually explain myself in RP why I decided that my faction turned against another faction, or whatever. I don't play myself through a computer game and end up taking things less personal than most of you. Learn from it!

But, all of those tests assume I can see what's on your character sheet. I can't. I can't even tell basic things, like what classes you have. Role playing means that you are playing a role of your own design, and how your own design is affected by other characters is up to you.

Just cause I found it interesting, even if it is off topic. Elminster was a true character played in a PnP game. But, D'rizzt, Breunor, Jaraxele. . . those characters were created by R.A. Salvatore for a book and never had DM intervention involved. Right? That's what I had thought, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[kellendril]

Why??

It'd be awesome!!!

Who cares what's on the character sheet anyway?? Might as well have as much (#2) as possible to play with.... How does it make your experience with the game any worse?

Really? You character sheet provides the framework and boundaries of that particular character's personality and abilities. Just like characters with 8 Dex will suck at HIPSing, characters with 8 Charisma shouldn't be world leaders unless they spent a near lifetime raising their diplomacy.

How about a test:

1. Do you find the exuberant warrior, with 6 or 8 Charisma, that successfully rallies his troops to face difficult foes, somewhat insulting?
2. Do you see anything wrong with a character, who has 0 points in Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc., that is able to successfully convince anyone of anything?
3. Do you believe that this is just another mmo and a character's character sheet should only influence the character's behavior when the player feels like it? Ya know, character sheets are only builds and 'I am the character' stuff?

My point is that character behavior can only successfully enforced through self-policing. You, the player, have to have the self-control to not turn you stupid, ugly, manner-less Orc into a leader of many men.

There is nothing wrong with playing a soldier. I do it all the time, and I believe I have more fun than most because I'm not having to continually explain myself in RP why I decided that my faction turned against another faction, or whatever. I don't play myself through a computer game and end up taking things less personal than most of you. Learn from it!

But, all of those tests assume I can see what's on your character sheet. I can't. I can't even tell basic things, like what classes you have. Role playing means that you are playing a role of your own design, and how your own design is affected by other characters is up to you.

Just cause I found it interesting, even if it is off topic. Elminster was a true character played in a PnP game. But, D'rizzt, Breunor, Jaraxele. . . those characters were created by R.A. Salvatore for a book and never had DM intervention involved. Right? That's what I had thought, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Even if they were created for PNP it really doesn't apply to a game like NWN2, because there is not constant direct contact with a DM to control how you use your character's abilities, nor are the things you face generated specifically for your characters. This is not PNP, and it serves a MUCH larger audience than any PNP game ever could, hence the concerns about game balance and abuse of rules designed to foster that balance. The fact is that allowing people to take just one level of some class, or to take their levels whenever they feel like it instead of by a certain set level alters the game's balance and changes the experience for EVERYONE, not just for the one person whose character is going outside the rules. That's why the rule exists. If the staff begins to allow one player to deviate, then how do the reasonably say anyone else cannot? What happens then is a sliding upward of the server's difficulty, resulting in a gap somewhere in the difficulty ranges of spawns. Its really in the best interest of the entire server populace to keep following the rule as written because the server is balanced with that rule in place, and it seems to be working reasonably well at present.

[ThatPirateGuy]

I personally don't like games where each class has its very definite purpose and occupies a small niche. It stinks of MMOs and ruins flavour for me. But I do agree that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses and that none should be all powerful.

So, you do agree, but you don't agree...

Defined party roles, and limiting the capabilities of any one character is what keeps MMO's from being a number-crunchers paradise of soloing. Kind of like oh.. ummm... Here.

There's already builds on the server that can solo anything here, and there's no good way to get rid of it without ruining a LOT of flavor. So, if balance is unachievable without sucking out the flavor, why worry about the balance.

I say we toss in Full Kaedrins, Full RoF, and watch the fun unfold. Balance is already a joke, at best, this would just allow more creative ways to the same end. Besides, I want to lay siege to the merchant camp on a Drider Ninja/Warlock/Black Flame Zealot!

What I mean to say is that MMOs take balance too far, to the point that it becomes ridiculous. Each character becomes a function within the group and not a person, which is bad in a roleplay environment, if you ask me. For example in WoW you have fighters to serve as tanks and draw aggro from the DPS people. They're only good as meatbags and don't actually fight in the real sense of the word. All in the name of mechanics and game balance, at the expense of realism and flavour. I rather like the imbalance present in PnP D&D, because it has realism to it, even if other parts of the game are quite made up, such as the combat system as Ambaryerno always points out. That imbalance, coupled with an ever-present DM to modify the challenge whenever needed gives character to the adventure.

Which brings me right back to my point. If we're not worrying about balance, why are we constantly shooting stuff down and tweaking for "balance" reasons? Why worry about power level at all? I'm kind of this mind as well, but by god, if we're going to place limitations on stuff and make other things useless/unreliable for "balances" sake, then do it across the board.

It was possible to make a non-optimal toon in WoW, but it was pretty hard to make a useless one, and each class still had multiple party roles it could fulfill, depending on Spec/Gear, sometimes multiple ones at once, so saying that it was limiting was kind of ridiculous. Mages aren't SUPPOSED to tank in DnD either, and Gish don't exist in WoW... *smirks*

[muffinFBSL]

I think Muffin is on to something here. I might support the idea if it means i can take my shadowdancer lvl 2 and 3 at level 29 and 30 on my bard 27, SD 3. That way i can get faster acces to song and hymn of requiem and as Muffin said: It wouldn't be powerbuilding or anything as i'd get access to it anyway later...

Were you being facetious or is this serious? If you're being serious, I really appreciate it. That is exactly what I mean...

[nuthouse2k]

I think Muffin is on to something here. I might support the idea if it means i can take my shadowdancer lvl 2 and 3 at level 29 and 30 on my bard 27, SD 3. That way i can get faster acces to song and hymn of requiem and as Muffin said: It wouldn't be powerbuilding or anything as i'd get access to it anyway later...

Were you being facetious or is this serious? If you're being serious, I really appreciate it. That is exactly what I mean...

just making sure you didn't just want rangers to be able to do this...

[joleda]

Are you that bored with the game that the only challenge is to make very powerful character as quickly as possible?