Powerbuild 3 Level Rule

[muffinFBSL]

This should probably be under the Q&A sub-forum, but no one ever looks at stuff there...

So I was wondering about the Power Build rule. It restricts you from taking less than three levels of a class before epic and adding new classes after epic without permission.

What I'm curious about is the initial intention of the rule. NO THIS IS NOT GOING WHERE YOU THINK IT'S GOING. Was the intention of the whole "before level 20" thing because taking new classes after epic presents better build opportunities for characters? In a sense it does... like fighter levels in epic are better than ones before epic for example. If that was the intention, the rule would make sense currently. I get the feeling though that that was not the original reason for putting that specific rule in place.

The reason you need all your classes at 3 levels before 20 is to make sure you actually get them eventually, right? Because you could say 19 Rogue 1 Shadowdancer, I'll take the other 2 at 19 and 20. This rule prevents that. And before, it used to be that this made sense, considering the person in question would likely never get to 30.

But what I'm saying is, with more and more epic areas and larger groups to party with now, lots of people or obtaining lots of epic levels. Following that logic, it would make more sense to say that you need at least 3 levels of a class by 25 or 30 for example because... yeah, you probably will actually get to level 25 in the current module fairly quickly compared to how it used to be. So basically, what I'm saying is that unless I was incorrect about the reason for the rule's existence as mentioned in my third stanza here, and if you agree with me on it being easier to level now then it used to be, it would make sense to make the powerbuild rule something like level 25 or 30 instead of 20.

If that didn't make sense, I can try to clarify.

[Mammothtruk]

I havent really had an issue with taking 3 levels of any class by 20 as NORMALLY my builds dont take a class late in teh build. I dont really understand why the rule is in place though and would agree it seems out of place to have the pre 20 statement in there.

I dont think I would care if it was removed or not really. It has yet to effect me at all.

[muffinFBSL]

The reason it currently effects me for example is... I am working on a Ranger who wants to have two other classes. Something along the lines of 21/4/5. The way I want to play it is to take the 21 Ranger first, because I want to get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting as soon as possible as well as Bane of Enemies, and then work in to the two other multi classes. If I follow the rule, I have to 14/3/3/7 and won't get 21 Ranger levels until level 27... which kind of sucks. It isn't like I would abuse the system and only splash 1 level in the other multiclasses at 22 and 23 and then pledge to take the rest at 30 or something. I'll be taking the levels and I'll be getting those high levels eventually, I promise. I just think it makes more sense to have the rule set at 3 levels in each class by 25 or 30.

[Eral'ai]

Powerbuild rule exists to cut down on powerbuilds. You're complaining about not being able to powerbuild the way you want to. I don't get it.

[Blackman D]

see that only sounds like an example of why the rule is there in the first place

you want all your power right away and dont want a late bloomer so epic levels are cake sauce for you

[joleda]

I like the powerbuild rule for all the reasons you stated above. If you don't put in the level 20 part, then people will push those last two Rogue, Shadowdancer, etc., levels off till levels 28+. This would have no impact on their character since they are basically a powerbuild, that isn't impacted by powerbuild rules, for the first 28 levels. You'll get all the benefits of being a powerbuild through the toughest levels, which are probably 18-27 for most people.

It appears I am in the very low minority with my opinions though. Maybe the new player base is too young, or I'm getting too old? Maybe that's why I appear to be a nerfherder....

Anyway, I don't see a problem if you went 21 Ranger and then picked up 4 X and then 5 Y. The build only deviates from Ranger slightly and a very good excuse could be made about your deity wishing you to expand your training. (I'm assuming that I know what your build is by making that statement.) But if an exception is made for that one build, then there will be crying in the streets for a thousand others.

[muffinFBSL]

Wrong. The rule was put there to make sure end up the 3 levels in all your classes. To make sure that happens, they put it by level 20 because if it was level 30 back then you wouldn't ever really have to take the other levels cause late epic levels were generally very distant goals. As it becomes easier to get to level 30 with new areas etc, shouldn't you only need to have all your levels by level 30?

I'm not trying to powerbuild here. The build will be 21/4/5 no matter what. Common logic would say I want 21 Ranger as soon as possible just like how if you're playing a Rogue Assassin you want HiPS as soon as possible. If it was harder to get to level 12, the rule might be you need 3 levels in all classes before level 12. That means a Fighter/Assassin/Arcane Archer/Elemental Archer could not get his 8th Assassin level until level 17. This rule, as I said, is not meant to restrict you from getting the levels you want in a class when you want them. That is just a byproduct of the other means of power control it has, but has now become outdated because it is easier to get to a higher level.

Once again, I must say that if you think wanting 21 Ranger levels quick as I can get them is power-building, you just don't understand the rule. The rule is NOT meant to prolong my Ranger levels. There is no reason I should have to go 14/3/3/7 to get 21 Ranger. That has nothing to do with what this rule aims at. I'm quite certain that if you disagree and think that is one objective of the rule, then you just don't know what you're talking about. The rule is there to ensure you get 3 levels in all your classes (which I will be doing).

(edit) was saying Wrong to Era'lai and Blackman

[muffinFBSL]

I like the powerbuild rule for all the reasons you stated above. If you don't put in the level 20 part, then people will push those last two Rogue, Shadowdancer, etc., levels off till levels 28+. This would have no impact on their character since they are basically a powerbuild, that isn't impacted by powerbuild rules, for the first 28 levels. You'll get all the benefits of being a powerbuild through the toughest levels, which are probably 18-27 for most people.

I used to agree with that. But now, there are 10x more epic characters than there sued to be. 10x more level 30s. Waiting until level 28 to finish those SD is just smart, not cheating. It's like getting HiPS as quick as you can on a Rogue. Is that cheating? Besides, any real Power-player will be getting to level 28+ soon enough, especially with all of the new areas. (well, it's a bit different in the Underdark I guess with lots of ECL characters and less areas).

[kellendril]

This rule exists on most servers because it prevents a person taking things like 1 SD level just for HiPS, then grabbing all their more powerful build levels of their other classes. It is a powerbuilding tactic to carefully arrange your levels in order to get the most out of each level, you can't really deny that. Who doesn't want that? I know I do, I think about it carefully at each levelup. In fact, you said as much, I think, and that's what they are pointing out above. You want 21 ranger levels so you can get perfect 2 weapon, right?

If you ask me, the build calculator database is one of the worst things to ever happen to a "roleplay" server. People know the effect of every single level and as a result carefully plan out each and every level. So much for playing out in game events to dictate your build. I feel sad.

[joleda]

... If you ask me, the build calculator database is one of the worst things to ever happen to a "roleplay" server. People know the effect of every single level and as a result carefully plan out each and every level. So much for playing out in game events to dictate your build. I feel sad.

The game has lost some of its innocent fun hasn't it? No more flaws. No more personality.

What we have now is the perfect tool for the ultra control freak. People, in general, are becoming more goal-oriented and build-optimizing in a game that is supposed to be about fun. Now all we need are loads of cheap +7 gear so those same people can build super hero damage dealers and cover up every one of their flaws with super hero gear. Then, they will convince everyone in-character that they are Kings or Dukes or Leaders of Clan X with their 4-8 Charisma.

[Blackman D]

you even said it yourself that you wanted two really nice feats as soon as you could, your problem is that they are both epic ranger, people who make assassins have the chance to get hips at 13 if they go 5/8, there are other builds that have more classes along with assassin that get hips way later, but are still able to get 3 in each class before level 20, and for those that cant well you can always just ask if its ok there is really no reason to want to change the rule because of it, if you dont have a good reason to why you cant then thats just another problem that you have

[Eral'ai]

you even said it yourself that you wanted two really nice feats as soon as you could, your problem is that they are both epic ranger, people who make assassins have the chance to get hips at 13 if they go 5/8, there are other builds that have more classes along with assassin that get hips way later, but are still able to get 3 in each class before level 20, and for those that cant well you can always just ask if its ok there is really no reason to want to change the rule because of it, if you dont have a good reason to why you cant then thats just another problem that you have

Agreed. I believe the phrase is, "good things come to those who wait."

[muffinFBSL]

I understand that you think I should wait to get my 21 Ranger. But a normal Ranger doesn't have to wait 'til 27 does he! A Ranger Weapon Master only has to be 24, even! The logic you're all following doesn't make any sense. Just because that rule was put there and is restricting people, such as myself, in this way doesn't mean it is right or intended. I will be taking all 3 levels of the other two classes, I promise. And if you really want to know, those levels in the other classes happen to be FB and Fighter. Do you think PTWF and Bane of Enemies outweighs 5 FB? Honestly, it's debatable. I just want the Ranger levels without waiting for no apparent reason, sheesh.

For the record, I don't have a NWNdb account. I also don't claim to be a baron or whatever mumbo jumbo you brought up.

[Katzenjammer]

The rule will not be changed. The rule will not be waived. It has been in place for at -least- two years now, probalby three. Rather than cluttering up the forums with yet another pointless thread, why not PM the DM staff and we'll tell you the same thing these people have been saying?

[kellendril]

See, I actually think this is exactly what was intended by the rule. It slows down your ability to totally destroy anything in the game by making you wait to take the feats that give you extra attacks and damage. Think of it from a game balance point of view.

Also, an epic ranger who goes straight ranger doesn't get the benefit of whatever classes you are adding. He has limitations too, built into the class.